Power Armour dominating late game

[Gizmo]

Do I really have to post the video of the armour expert debunking the whole "heavy, clunky armour" thing again?

Powered Armor is not a 65 pound form fitting tin can or animal hide. Power Armor (even Fallout's PA) has a lot more in common the battle suit seen in 'District 9' or the loader in Aliens, than it does English Platemail or Police riot gear. For a full bodied suit, you step into a robot and it doesn't matter if your PC can do the splits or backhandsprings, if the robot is not designed for those maneuvers or with that flexibility, you can't do it while inside the machine.

How about, instead of "no power armour", we focus on a variety of power armour...

How about we focus on an under budgeted Ratheon project that only managed a short run of prototypes that were used for limited engagements and never fully battle tested, or upgraded after the tests.

** It should never come close to W40k.

[krellen]

Power Armor (even Fallout's PA) has a lot more in common the battle suit seen in 'District 9' or the loader in Aliens, than it does English Platemail or Police riot gear.

The only thing we know about Power Armour in Wasteland is that it is (supposedly) black, can be described as "heavy armour", and is nigh impervious.

[Emmy Lou]

@Emmy Lou:

IIRC, you said you have not yet played Wasteland, so I can understand where your thoughts start from. Most game systems do have power levels such that high level characters do not necessarily need excellent equipment to overcome extreme obstacles. Wasteland's Mercenaries, Spies and Private Eyes-based system is not one of those. A 20th level character might have twice the hit points of a 1st level one - not twenty times as in many systems. A 20th level character might have twice the skill points of a 1st level one - but only 6 or 7 skill ranks in a weapon skill, as opposed to 1 or 2. Level doesn't have the exponential power growth in this system, and thus equipment must by necessity supplement it.

Ah, so that is what MSPE means! I kept seeing it and have been frustrated with not knowing (Google failed me on this one)
And this is indeed a detail I was lacking from my bigger picture! Good to know. I actually enjoy these kind of systems, with a more based-in-life kind of ramp in power than becoming a walking godhand who can eat bullets in her ribs for breakfast and plasma bolts to the teeth for lunch, with a stim for dinner to top you off.

Though, if WL1's skill list returns and they make more use of options such as climb, acrobatics and move silent, I could still see reason to dress down when trying to approach combat from a more crafty approach. And if the character system does smack more of SPECIAL than MSPE, then I certainly do hope they include armours for the badass Rambos and MadMaxines among us

[Gizmo]

Power Armor (even Fallout's PA) has a lot more in common the battle suit seen in 'District 9' or the loader in Aliens, than it does English Platemail or Police riot gear.

The only thing we know about Power Armour in Wasteland is that it is (supposedly) black, can be described as "heavy armour", and is nigh impervious.

Then shouldn't it be?

We know Fallout's armor is different, but its still a good example to go by. I found that a lot of posters on the Bethsoft forums (when we talked about power armor, had no idea what they were; many just assumed it was conventional armor of some kind)...

Look at this thing; these are all probably at least 5'10" to 6' men, yet in the armor, the knee cap is above the kneeling man's hips, and he's 7' away from him.



Your feet don't touch the ground, and your hands are deep in the forearms of a suit like this.

[krellen]

Valid point - Brother Goliath (my supposed source for Power Armour info) is described as giant.

Still, the guys in that little clip don't look like they're clunking around in inflexible and inarticulate armour, either.

[Gizmo]

Valid point - Brother Goliath (my supposed source for Power Armour info) is described as giant.

Still, the guys in that little clip don't look like they're clunking around in inflexible and inarticulate armour, either.

Look closer:


The pauldron looks like ½" plate to me... and if it's at all bullet resistant, I'd say it's inflexible; just like the hex nut on each shoulder joint.

These suits seem a bit like some sort of bipedal one man vehicle; and (in Fallout), were described as a one man [armored] tank.
*Nothing at all like what Bethesda depicted.

This is what Black Ilse had in mind for Van Buren: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-FawsIRP2M

[stonetoes]

Do I really have to post the video of the armour expert debunking the whole "heavy, clunky armour" thing again?

Maybe I'm thinking of different boards, but I'm sure I've been told over and over again how modern body armour uses ceramic plates, is one use only, is extremely porous (as in there's lots of holes), can't withstand high calibre rounds, how a stab-proof vest won't give any protection against bullets and vice-versa...

Really, power-armour is not realistic in any sense, we all know that.

I made my feelings pretty clear on this issue in my thread on making armour variety viable. I want to see a balance which makes armour choice important. Even if power armour is the right choice 90% of the time, I want there to still be advantages to using other armour and equipment, or for using other armour to at least be a choice which isn't suicidal.

If you want realism, we can look at what the US army is doing with exoskeletons. It's my understanding that powered armour is being developed as a sort of mobile weapons platform, designed to facilitate the use and transport of heavy weapons, rather than to make them invulnerable mini-vehicles. Following this model could provide us with an endgame that doesn't mean "power armour = invincible, no power armour = mincemeat".

[BlackGauntlet]

Ah... but you're all wrong to assume that WL1's Power Armor is the same as Fallout's. Don't forget that Fallout's is based on 50's Pop Culture; when "Knights in Shining Armor" were your run-o'-the-mill heroes. While Wasteland, on the other hand, is based on the 80s. Wasteland Power Armors are modeled after Iron Man. Whatever Tony Stark could do, the Rangers could do it better in their Power Armors. 'nuff said, end of discussion about clunky armors.

[Woolfe]

Ah... but you're all wrong to assume that WL1's Power Armor is the same as Fallout's. Don't forget that Fallout's is based on 50's Pop Culture; when "Knights in Shining Armor" were your run-o'-the-mill heroes. While Wasteland, on the other hand, is based on the 80s. Wasteland Power Armors are modeled after Iron Man. Whatever Tony Stark could do, the Rangers could do it better in their Power Armors. 'nuff said, end of discussion about clunky armors.

Except when Tony Stark's armour ran out juice, he was pretty much immobile.

Yeah I think the all bets are off when it comes to wasteland Power armour. It'll be good to see what they do with it.

I must admit I like this

how a stab-proof vest won't give any protection against bullets and vice-versa...

How good would it be to roaming in your fancy bullet proof combat vest only to have grandma stab you with her sharpened bread and butter knife.

[stonetoes]

Yeah I think the all bets are off when it comes to wasteland Power armour. It'll be good to see what they do with it.

You're probably right, so our rangers will end up looking nothing like the concept art. Ah well, I'll just picture my rangers that way in my head.

[Gizmo]

Really, power-armour is not realistic in any sense, we all know that.
...
If you want realism, we can look at what the US army is doing with exoskeletons. It's my understanding that powered armour is being developed as a sort of mobile weapons platform, designed to facilitate the use and transport of heavy weapons, rather than to make them invulnerable mini-vehicles. Following this model could provide us with an endgame that doesn't mean "power armour = invincible, no power armour = mincemeat".

This explain the general premise for how a exoskeleton works; and I would think this could be loosely applied to the suits in Fallout. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kat8I5UM_Vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEOI7bYl3c
The military models look to be intended to include ones with armor plate.

[Drool]

Wikipedia has a list of 28 successes, and 38 failures. That list excludes many I mention above.

I wager most of those failures were of a more modern era. An aversion to overkill and realpolitik makes guerrilla warfare more likely to succeed.

[krellen]

Wikipedia has a list of 28 successes, and 38 failures. That list excludes many I mention above.

I wager most of those failures were of a more modern era. An aversion to overkill and realpolitik makes guerrilla warfare more likely to succeed.

I think you've got my stats turned around, Drool. "Failure" means the guerillas failed.

[stonetoes]

This explain the general premise for how a exoskeleton works; and I would think this could be loosely applied to the suits in Fallout. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kat8I5UM_Vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNEOI7bYl3c
The military models look to be intended to include ones with armor plate.

I was wondering why that picture looked so familiar, then I saw that the video it's from is 5 years old. The comment about different versions offering different levels of protection is interesting though, as is the contrast of those concept models with the working versions. Going by this, the suggestion earlier for a range of power armours to be available seems realistic. Also those exoskeletons always make me think of Stalker's power armour.

[GodComplex]

Maybe I'm thinking of different boards, but I'm sure I've been told over and over again how modern body armour uses ceramic plates, is one use only, is extremely porous (as in there's lots of holes), can't withstand high calibre rounds, how a stab-proof vest won't give any protection against bullets and vice-versa...

Actually, ceramic plates are they only thing that tends to stop the bigger rounds. But they only stop them once. The reason for ceramic plates is they are lighter than steel. Once you throw powered frames into the mix, you need not have to worry about weight so you can load up multiple layers on the armor to make it resistant to most things.

Really, power-armour is not realistic in any sense, we all know that.

I made my feelings pretty clear on this issue in my thread on making armour variety viable. I want to see a balance which makes armour choice important. Even if power armour is the right choice 90% of the time, I want there to still be advantages to using other armour and equipment, or for using other armour to at least be a choice which isn't suicidal.

Power armor is quite realistic, it's just that the cost benefit to strapping nuclear batteries to soldiers fighting goat herders isn't in any nation's best interest. Even in the Fallout universe, power armor was uncommon because it's use is limited and expensive.

[Drool]

Once you throw powered frames into the mix, you need not have to worry about weight so you can load up multiple layers on the armor to make it resistant to most things.

Not just powered frames, but futuristic materials, too, like the ever popular plasteel.

[Woolfe]

Once you throw powered frames into the mix, you need not have to worry about weight so you can load up multiple layers on the armor to make it resistant to most things.

Not just powered frames, but futuristic materials, too, like the ever popular plasteel.

Of course powered fames, would need to be ... Powered... to gain the advantage.... Which presumably would mean using up power cells etc, just for wandering the desert

[Drool]

Not necessarily. There's another thread bouncing around about solar power. The power armor could have an internal battery that's charge by photovoltaic cells during down periods.

[GodComplex]

Nuclear battery. It's like solar, but 24/7.

[Shady314]

Nuclear battery. It's like solar, but 24/7.

Yes and everyone knows nuclear batteries require no maintenance and can never run out of power or be damaged in any way.
Now how do I get one for my laser rifle? Limitless ammo sounds great.