"Old School RPG" thanks, but no thanks.

[Woolfe]

Fair enough, So you might have a "canteen" and a "long life Rations pack"

These items as described represent two different mechanics.

The canteen implies a ranger is capable of collecting water at all times as long as the canteen is in inventory. The rations pack is "auto-used" until depleted, meaning it has a direct effect.

I would rather the "rations pack" be a "scrounger kit", which implies the ranger is using it to trap lizards, test fruit for toxins, etc. It does not exhaust itself and therefore operates like the canteen as an item that reduces or eliminates negative stat hits when present at the sacrifice of inventory space. Spending on a skill to replace these items moves the compromise from inventory to skill buy.

Good point...Although providing the description is well descriptive about it being refilled at towns(presumeably for a fee) or with "Survivalist" skills, the name wouldn't really be that important.

[Woolfe]

Kind of missing the whole "Skill that reduces the effect comment" but sure
I was looking for ways to implement the idea of food and Water requirements in a way that wouldn't be onerous, and would take into account your skills.
So if you have Survivalist skill, you don't need to buy food and water because you do it automatically in the background as you roam. Sorta like Bear Grills drinking his own pee

This is good!

I agree the game can be enhanced by more environmental skills/items. It's the Canteen principle. It doesn't involve the player deciding where to find food or water or changes of clothing. But, otoh, if it is a skill then it's something that improves. So, there must be some easier and some more difficult environments. So it is some kind of combination of the Canteen principle and the Climb principle. MSPE has "Environmental survival" skills, fwiw.

Agreed, and the "more difficult environments" Going into a desert whilst at level 1 survival would mean expending a lot of water, at regular intervals (whatever they are) and perhaps during those checks, there is a chance that your survival skill succeeds and you get a greater effect, and a chance for the skill to improve.

[timobkg]

My main thought towards game design is "does it make the game more fun?"

I want to deal with water and food shortages.

Is this actually fun? You either stock your inventory full of food / water (annoying), or you have to pick a skill that does it for you (mandatory skill to not be annoyed). This is like having to sleep every day - realistic but not fun.

I want to deal with diseases.

Poisoned by a scorpion, sure. VD from a hooker, sure. But no random Oregon Trail-like "Timmy has come down with the pox" as all that means is that I have to drop what I'm doing and waste some time to take care of it before getting back to what I was doing. Wasting my time isn't fun.

I want to deal with inventory weight.

I don't. Weight limited inventories take a lot more time and effort to manage than space limited inventories (Diablo, WoW). I prefer an unlimited inventory, as inventories are never realistic to begin with, and time spent managing my inventory is time taken away from actually playing the game. If you want to limit the player, limit the items available (Witcher) or limit the ammo available. I'd rather spend my time playing Wasteland 2 than inventory manager 213.

I want to create my characters and not just "roll" them

If you mean using a point-buy system, and being able to assign points to the stats / skills of your choice, then I completely agree.

In short I do not see why difficulties of survival have to be eliminated from the ravaged world. Why simple common sense realities are an impediment to the story or Game play-they are the game play and the story.

Because this game isn't Man vs Wild. The difficulty of survival in Wasteland is that a giant mechanical scorpion is going to fill you full of holes, not that you have to find shelter, food, and water.

If you have to drop equipment because you cannot carry it-so be it. If you are dying from thirst and you have to trade your Gatling gun for a liter of water-tough-suck it up.

For the former, I can't recall a single case of inventory management that didn't come down to "ok, I'll drop my least useful crap". There were no meaningful choices, just boring inventory management.
For the latter, the situation only works if it's a scripted event. Otherwise, you'll just fill your inventory full of water, such that you never place yourself in such a situation. All it does is add extra busywork and a money sink. Unless water is so rare that you can't just buy it all, at which point it might as well be a scripted event.

[Azriel]

My main thought towards game design is "does it make the game more fun?"

I want to deal with water and food shortages.

Is this actually fun? You either stock your inventory full of food / water (annoying), or you have to pick a skill that does it for you (mandatory skill to not be annoyed). This is like having to sleep every day - realistic but not fun.

I want to deal with diseases.

Poisoned by a scorpion, sure. VD from a hooker, sure. But no random Oregon Trail-like "Timmy has come down with the pox" as all that means is that I have to drop what I'm doing and waste some time to take care of it before getting back to what I was doing. Wasting my time isn't fun.

I want to deal with inventory weight.

I don't. Weight limited inventories take a lot more time and effort to manage than space limited inventories (Diablo, WoW). I prefer an unlimited inventory, as inventories are never realistic to begin with, and time spent managing my inventory is time taken away from actually playing the game. If you want to limit the player, limit the items available (Witcher) or limit the ammo available. I'd rather spend my time playing Wasteland 2 than inventory manager 213.

I want to create my characters and not just "roll" them

If you mean using a point-buy system, and being able to assign points to the stats / skills of your choice, then I completely agree.

In short I do not see why difficulties of survival have to be eliminated from the ravaged world. Why simple common sense realities are an impediment to the story or Game play-they are the game play and the story.

Because this game isn't Man vs Wild. The difficulty of survival in Wasteland is that a giant mechanical scorpion is going to fill you full of holes, not that you have to find shelter, food, and water.

If you have to drop equipment because you cannot carry it-so be it. If you are dying from thirst and you have to trade your Gatling gun for a liter of water-tough-suck it up.

For the former, I can't recall a single case of inventory management that didn't come down to "ok, I'll drop my least useful crap". There were no meaningful choices, just boring inventory management.
For the latter, the situation only works if it's a scripted event. Otherwise, you'll just fill your inventory full of water, such that you never place yourself in such a situation. All it does is add extra busywork and a money sink. Unless water is so rare that you can't just buy it all, at which point it might as well be a scripted event.

I pretty much agree with this.

[Salfin]

I think you and I might disagree on what an "Old School RPG" implies. Perhaps it can imply different things to different people, but these element you've listed are not outside the realm of an RPG.

To Roleplay within a world means to immerse yourself within the experience, and make decisions within the context of that immersion and your character. Within wasteland that can well mean making decisions within the context of the fight for survival in a desert wasteland.

I don't know whether or not the team wants to focus on water/food management, but to do so wouldn't make it any less a roleplaying game.

I think you're offering us a false choise as to whether or not we want a "fairy make believer game" or a game that's going to "kick us in the nuts".

I don't think that's whats going on in the design process.

[Ronrocken]

Maybe add a food/water survival option? Maybe let someone mod that into the game later?