What makes a currency viable?

[BlackGauntlet]

Hmm. I just realized: Most necessary occupation after the Apocalypse = Undertaker. No lack of work to be done.

Not really. BUTCHERS are the most necessary occupation... until they run out of dead bodies...

[paultakeda]

However, there WILL be a level of residual radiation that slips into the harvested foods, and that WILL result in an explosion in the cancer rate. That is, if you aren't killed outright, if you don't die of starvation in the meantime, if you aren't killed by raiders and scavengers, there's a good chance that your food may still kill you slowly anyway.

Hmm. I just realized: Most necessary occupation after the Apocalypse = Undertaker. No lack of work to be done.

This is veering off topic and more relevant in this thread but here's my response, along with trying to get it back in topic :

Nuclear weapons do not irradiate an areas as much as a nuclear power plant. The initial kill zone and those exposed to the blast radiation will get a target population, but the surviving population outside the blast area will actually be all right. The problem is a nuclear winter, and it's possible that the way the nuclear apocalypse in the game turned out there wasn't much of one.

Also, while the timeline in Wasteland suggests at best only four or five human generations and so we can't expect too much adaptation, it's evident that agricultural technologies were available and exploited to produce hardier (and scary big) crops. Starvation becomes a none issue. Low level radiation may introduce higher cancer rates but that's a disease for the old. Pop some kids out before then and we're good. Sure the zygote's irradiated a bit, but the mutations that don't make it don't make it; keep trying.

"Somehow life continues in the Wasteland."

Moving it back to topic: given that Wasteland takes place in an area more or less survived intact. While survival was an issue in the short lean years immediately following the nuclear apocalypse, it's evident that communities like Ranger Center were able to hold control and eventually begin expansion. Though explained in the manual as the rangers bringing peace and justice, this is historically a euphemism for, "Well, crap, we're kinda overpopulated and probably need to start sorting things out OUT THERE so we can expand."

Hence, my calling the rangers the new Saxons, bringing about a new polity and along with it, a currency even accepted by communities outside the polity.

[GodComplex]

Not to get too far off track, but I propose the follow scenario to be torn apart and scrutinized by the community. Let's go with the idea of the Ranger script as currency. This assumes that the Rangers are the largest or most powerful group in the region. Now, your job as a squad of Rangers is to go out into the world and try to expand the Ranger's power through good deeds.

As your reputation increases or decreases with outlying civilizations, the Rangers gain more power and their script increases in value with stability of the region. Now, as your squad does various good deeds you come across that the Rangers have been corrupted by their gain in power and have become less a body of good natured individuals and more a group of authoritarians bent on ushering in the new world order of feudalism with them in charge. Your squad is now being tasked less with helping out the misfortunate and more with pacifying rebellions, leaving you with the choice of joining the rebellion or continuing the path of imperialism.

[CaptainPatch]

.... the Rangers gain more power and their script increases in value with stability of the region. Now, as your squad does various good deeds you come across that the Rangers have been corrupted by their gain in power and have become less a body of good natured individuals and more a group of authoritarians bent on ushering in the new world order of feudalism with them in charge.

Hmm. Followers of the Apocalypse morph into a more high-tech Caesar's Legion.

IF the Rangers are going to _force_ civilization onto the chaos, then, yeah, Ranger script would be part of the deal. (The Hub merchants may object, however.)

Hmm. I kind of like that the Ranger mission has a focus (revive civilization). In the original WL, it felt more like I was simply wandering around, seeing what there was to see. Being hooked into the main plot just sort of happened, and it didn't feel that I was explicitly following the Ranger game plan.

---

Just had an epiphany.

It has been suggested that ammo would make for a decent currency, primarily because of its universal value. I realized _empty_ cartridges would do better for currency: They have inherent value as being necessary for doing reloads. They're difficult to counterfeit. Denominations of currency are as simple as noting the caliber of the cartridge. There's a finite number in "circulation", but there are a LOT of them spread across the Wasteland. Even if more empty cartridges are found, adding them into circulation does NOT dilute the currency because of their inherent value. "Fake" currency would be easy to spot as those would be noticeably deformed or corroded. And unlike actually usable ammo, there would be less reluctance to trade away such a valuable commodity. [You may need to actually shoot something or someone. Can't do that with an empty cartridge.]

Overall, _empty_ cartridges seem to fulfill all of the requirements for being a viable currency. Except for ease of manufacture. (Mine the ore. [Mines] Smelt the ore. [Smelters] Mix the component metals into the just right alloy. [Metal foundries] Cast the alloy into precisely shaped molds or do metal stamping and shaping. [Heavy machinery]) Aside from the slim possibility that actual ammunition manufacturers survived intact (and stayed that way). [Most such manufacturers are located near major population centers that would be prime nuke targets. And if the nukes were plentiful, weapons manufacturers would also have been targeted directly.] The whole process requires a LOT of heavy machinery to be manufactured, each step of which requires the machinery that makes machines.

Don't double post - BN

[UniversalWolf]

Just for the sake of discussion I'd like to point out that the coinage of ancient Sparta was made of iron which was heated and doused in vinegar to render it ugly and useless of any kind of forging or metalwork. In theory gold and silver had no value in Sparta, and spartan currency had no value outside the realm.

[GodComplex]

Overall, _empty_ cartridges seem to fulfill all of the requirements for being a viable currency. Except for ease of manufacture. (Mine the ore. [Mines] Smelt the ore. [Smelters] Mix the component metals into the just right alloy. [Metal foundries] Cast the alloy into precisely shaped molds or do metal stamping and shaping. [Heavy machinery]) Aside from the slim possibility that actual ammunition manufacturers survived intact (and stayed that way). [Most such manufacturers are located near major population centers that would be prime nuke targets. And if the nukes were plentiful, weapons manufacturers would also have been targeted directly.] The whole process requires a LOT of heavy machinery to be manufactured, each step of which requires the machinery that makes machines.

For sake of argument let's ignore that brass casings are easily damaged and i want to run with this. Let's combine ideas, and work with a Ranger script backed by casings. Work this into a sort of mercantilism system where the Rangers attempt to pacify the region by collecting all the ammo. They end up creating a Fort Knox of ammo. They could even go so far as to buy up the ammo by offering rations and water to the region or offering a 'protection racket.' They control all they guns and the soldiers and anyone who doesn't behave loses their services. Might not play to well to the 'game hates me' crowd who demand bare minimum supplies, but it could be fun to play with an economics based plot.

[CaptainPatch]

Let's combine ideas, and work with a Ranger script backed by casings. Work this into a sort of mercantilism system where the Rangers attempt to pacify the region by collecting all the ammo. They end up creating a Fort Knox of ammo. They could even go so far as to buy up the ammo by offering rations and water to the region or offering a 'protection racket.' They control all they guns and the soldiers and anyone who doesn't behave loses their services. Might not play to well to the 'game hates me' crowd who demand bare minimum supplies, but it could be fun to play with an economics based plot.

Actual live ammo? In a Wasteland environment? You would be asking people to voluntarily disarm themselves on the promise of security and protection. People aren't that trusting now, and after the Apocalypse, they sure as hell are NOT going to be that trusting.

_Empty_ casings that they themselves don't have the ability to reload (which will describe >90% of the people), that's a different story. It would sort of be like scavenging soda cans and pop bottles for the recycling deposit. And because f their inherent value, it wouldn't matter if anyone dumped a HUGE number into circulation after finding a large cache somewhere.

[Hmm. Number 1 weapon mod: a brass catcher for expended rounds.]

[GodComplex]

Well I believe part of my scenario didn't exactly involve 'asking' them to disarm. I meant it in more of 'a group of heavily armed individuals suggesting' you cooperate for the greater good.

[CaptainPatch]

Well I believe part of my scenario didn't exactly involve 'asking' them to disarm. I meant it in more of 'a group of heavily armed individuals suggesting' you cooperate for the greater good.

"I'll give you my gun when you take it from my cold, dead hands." Expect to encounter the NRA-on-steroids. Given the inevitable casualties the Rangers would most definitely sustain trying to enforce such a policy, do you really think that the people in charge would think it was a worthwhile price to pay?

[KentAble]

Asking people to disarm is so direct. All you would have to do is slowly increase the price of live ammo and people would have to either cut down on necessities or decide that eating and living under a protectorate is better than pulling a Geronimo with an ammo dump in your rucksack. After all what good is a gun if you can't afford the ammo?

[CaptainPatch]

Asking people to disarm is so direct. All you would have to do is slowly increase the price of live ammo and people would have to either cut down on necessities or decide that eating and living under a protectorate is better than pulling a Geronimo with an ammo dump in your rucksack. After all what good is a gun if you can't afford the ammo?

If you deprive people of their guns (by reducing their access to ammo) that would still NOT disarm them. They would simply revert to using muscle-powered weapons. In a hostile world where nasties can and do crop up practically anywhere, nearly everyone would see moving around totally unarmed as being suicidal behavior.

[GodComplex]

I believe that was the inherent challenge in the scenario. What kind of challenge would there be if you could just step on necks until people complied? There could be manipulation, bribery, market control, targeted assassination, etc..

The basic idea was that you have a plot based on the Rangers attempting to expand their power and the corruption that expansion brings about. A plot where instead of fighting the man, you are fighting for the man and the moral dilemma of being a finger man vs helping to over throw your bosses. A plot that starts with good intentions and ends in a power vacuum, a destabilized region, or the emergence of you to lead the new authoritarian regime. How you go about that is up to you.

[Klim]

Here is my opinion about preferred currency system, if anybody is interested.

Time of barter is definitely past: since communities were formed, there will be leaders, who will become official governments a bit later, and governments can't exist without currency.

Since survival is still very important problem for all communities, and it's really hard to wage full-scale war in radioactive wasteland, it doesn't likely, that any one of them will be able to conquer all others and found universal currency.

As there will be trade companies (caravan companies), there will be another type of currency – notes of trade companies. I don't think that one of those companies will be able to takeover control over trade in whole wasteland and make their notes universal currency thereby, because of tough business struggle and resistant of towns that get profit for being located on crossing of routs of different caravan companies.

So I think there should be several (by the number of strong communities) “local” currencies which are current in big strong towns and smaller communities not far from those towns; and 3-5 (by the number of biggest caravan companies) “traders” currencies which are current anywhere not far from branch office of that caravan (not more than day of way) or in small settlements on that caravan route.

By the way 1: some “local” currency may be in form of bottle caps – the settlement was founded near pre-war beer of soft drinks factory, because there was water purification facility, and occasionally there was found a machine for unique bottle caps stamping.
By the way 2: “traders” currencies, and town on the cross of routs of several caravan companies can be good background for detective-style quest about forgery, corporation wars and one too greedy currency speculator.

[paultakeda]

At this point I think I'm just going to nitpick and say anything is good... as long as it isn't bottle caps.

Bottle caps worked for Fallout because of the 50s theme. Wasteland's setting is the pulpy, punk, heavy metal, color clashing frenzied happiness of a dystopia that is the 80s, which at that point had pretty much left bottles for cans for quite awhile.

So whatever it is, it better not be caps.

[Drool]

So whatever it is, it better not be caps.

Bootleg Ratt cassette mix tapes.

[BubbaBrown]

So whatever it is, it better not be caps.

Bootleg Ratt cassette mix tapes.

Well, there's always all those E.T. Atari cartridges out there.

[rakenan]

A viable currency is something that is held as valuable to all or most of the people you want to trade with, that is reasonably easy to transport, and that is not removed from the economy in large amounts by use. That last one means that ammo is, in fact, a terrible form of money.

If you want to get complicated, make it precious metals by weight. Your "money" supply would be ounces of copper, silver, and gold. You could go into coins being minted by weight and trusted (or not) based on who mints them, but it's probably a waste of time. While there would be general trends as to their relative value, you could give each settlement a different value for each metal. In one settlement, an ounce of silver might be worth 12 ounces of copper. In another, which has a copper mine nearby, that same ounce of silver might be worth 20 ounces of copper. Merchants would list prices in all three metals, and you could trade metals at a moneychanger/bank/goldsmith/whatever, for a nominal fee.

I'm not convinced this system would really make the game any better, but I'm not convinced that obsessing over the economy of the game in any way will make the game any better. I want to play a team of heroic Desert Rangers making the Wasteland safe for humanity and (hopefully) civilization, I'm not interested in SimPostApocalypticEconomy. So my preferred solution would just to make the game's money dollars, with a throw-away reference that dollars in the Wasteland are a silver coin of specific weight, not paper money.

If we have to get deep into the economy, though, I think precious metals are the way to go. They have the virtue of being believable forms of currency with a long history of use, and having three metals used allows some tuning of local economies to favor one metal or another. Even allows some economic gaming from players who care to do that sort of thing.

[Prometheus]

I liked the way Fallout: Tactics handled this:

• Brotherhood of Steel Scrip - Used for buying/trading/selling within the Brotherhood of Steel and affiliated..
• Bottlecaps* - Used for trade with outside parties

I think Wasteland could do something similar by having Desert Rangers Scrip / Credits, and then other monetary systems depending on the lore / power-groups in the region. For example, maybe a cartel could use "new pesos" that they issue and mint, and some other city/group has their own.

Bartering could be cool in some instances, but overall there should be some types of accepted and useful currency.

As some people pointed out, the exchange rate and acceptance of Desert Rangers' credits would be limited to areas under DR control, or whatever. Anyways, just some ideas.

[stonetoes]

Bottlecaps* - Used for trade with outside parties

Ringpulls from cans, wasn't it? This would also fit with paultakeda's request for something more 80s I guess.

[Prometheus]

Actually, yeah! That's why I put an asterisk there... I didn't remember it very well.