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What makes a currency viable?

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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby CaptainPatch » April 15th, 2012, 11:56 pm

Emmy Lou wrote:Like, maybe your Rangers enter a town ...

In regards to games with a solid Supply & Demand modeling, Kalypso Media has an excellent game titled Patrician 4. (http://www.hookedgamers.com/pc/patricia ... e-595.html). I've played the game extensively and though there are elements that I am disappointed in, the Market elements are outstanding. Prices can fluctuate during the transaction! Meaning that as you diminish a commodity, the price per unit starts to climb, or as you dump product, the price per unit drops. Market saturation or market scarcity is also factored in.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby scout » April 17th, 2012, 10:39 pm

Shadowless wrote:Honestly I believe that it would be much less a specific currency type and more along the lines of a barter economy. The only thing I would see as something worth value that everyone would agree on would be ammo/food/water.


^^Agree.

In a real post apocaliptic scenario trading of various items is all you have. You won't have a single item many times over ie;bottlecaps. Though it works in the fallout games IMHO because of the design style of the games and for a simplification of commerce.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby Zahar » April 18th, 2012, 12:36 am

Shadowless wrote:Honestly I believe that it would be much less a specific currency type and more along the lines of a barter economy. The only thing I would see as something worth value that everyone would agree on would be ammo/food/water.


I think Metro 2033 nailed this perfectly - match ammo is probably the best "pocket sized" currency to this kind of scenario. Gas is also a good choice (like in Mad Max), but would be kinda awkward since this is not a vehicular combat game.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby Fuzi0n » April 22nd, 2012, 6:30 pm

Well, Wasteland 2 could have a barter only system, but the player would still need to have an easy way to figuratively measure how much an item is worth.

The game could (as suggested) use bullets, food or water as the base value of all items... but whatever inxile chooses would be the currency of the game. So, no matter how you look at it, the game will and must have a currency system.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby CaptainPatch » April 22nd, 2012, 11:56 pm

Fuzi0n wrote:Well, Wasteland 2 could have a barter only system, but the player would still need to have an easy way to figuratively measure how much an item is worth.

The game could (as suggested) use bullets, food or water as the base value of all items... but whatever inxile chooses would be the currency of the game. So, no matter how you look at it, the game will and must have a currency system.

WHAT THE PLAYER DOESN'T KNOW: _Every_ item has a Value Point amount assigned to it. This shows the comparative value between this and that.
EVERY character has some kind of Barter Skill value, say from 1-100.
Professional merchants have +20 to +50 added to their Barter Skill.
Transaction: The difference between the other person's Barter score and yours will determine sales prices One party or another indicates, "I'd like to buy _that_." If he is buying, the offered price is the percentage difference less than the item's Value Points in items he offers in exchange. If he is selling, then the Skill value difference is added to the base Value of the item you are trying to acquire. Sales are finalized when your side of the deal exceeds that Skill difference-modified item Value.

Example 1: You want to acquire a Rad suit (Value = 2300). Your Barter Skill is 45. The other person's Barter Skill is 75. The difference is 30 in favor of the other guy. To acquire the Rad suit, you will need to offer 2300 x 1.30 = 2990. You will have to offer _at least_ 2990 Value Points worth of goods to get the Rad suit.

Example 2: You want to sell a Leather Jacket (Value = 200). Same Barter Skills. What the other guy will offer is 200 x .7 = 140. He will offer things that amount to _no more_ than 140 Value Points.

To make transactions more fluid, we could have the NPC make suggestions of this for that. (And for some odd reason, what he suggests gives _him_ a bit more than the straightforward exchange.) [Modified by CHA perhaps? "I like you, Ranger, so here's what I'm going to do for you...."]
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby b0rsuk » April 24th, 2012, 12:15 am

What Is Money ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gizetn5VuA0
The 17 minute lecture describes very fundamentals of money in simple terms and few sentences.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby Fuzi0n » April 24th, 2012, 7:44 am

CaptainPatch wrote:
Fuzi0n wrote:Well, Wasteland 2 could have a barter only system, but the player would still need to have an easy way to figuratively measure how much an item is worth.

The game could (as suggested) use bullets, food or water as the base value of all items... but whatever inxile chooses would be the currency of the game. So, no matter how you look at it, the game will and must have a currency system.

WHAT THE PLAYER DOESN'T KNOW: _Every_ item has a Value Point amount assigned to it. This shows the comparative value between this and that.

Can you imagine how tedious this would be? That game has to tell us how much an item is worth, even if it should have no currency in the classic term of coins of banknotes. As far as I care it can be something generic like "10 value points".

I am a pack rat, I collect and sell everything that I possibly can, because I think this is fun. Not knowing the value of an item would would force me to make lists and write down the value of every item. That would be very annoying and extremely tedious.

And how would the bartering system work? Lets say I want to buy a pair of red boots. Do I just keep on adding items to the table and click "barter" until the shop owner stops telling me to "fuck off", because my offer is too low or what? What If I accidentally trade a super valuable item for a trash item? The shop owner will of course have no problem with this, but I would be srewed.

Your idea will not work in my opinion. It will just make bartering extremely annoying.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby CaptainPatch » April 24th, 2012, 9:33 am

Fuzi0n wrote:And how would the bartering system work? Lets say I want to buy a pair of red boots. Do I just keep on adding items to the table and click "barter" until the shop owner stops telling me to "fuck off", because my offer is too low or what?

"You want to buy this thing? What are you offering? Naw, you're going to have to sweeten the deal. More. More. Good enough. Anything you want to sell? Here's what I have to trade; which items do you want? That's too much; take out this, this, and this and you can have the rest of what you asked for. Deal?"
What If I accidentally trade a super valuable item for a trash item? The shop owner will of course have no problem with this, but I would be screwed.
Fuzi0n wrote:What If I accidentally trade a super valuable item for a trash item? The shop owner will of course have no problem with this, but I would be screwed.

You mean just like wheeler-and-dealers would do in Real Life? Can't have _that_ happen! That would be too realistic! [shrug] Maybe if you had enough CHA the vendor might say, "Since you seem like a decent enough fellow, I'll toss in these extras to make the deal more fair. Wouldn't want it to get around that I make a practice of ripping people off...too much."
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby suz » April 24th, 2012, 9:38 am

CaptainPatch wrote:"You want to buy this thing? What are you offering? Naw, you're going to have to sweeten the deal. More. More. Good enough. Anything you want to sell? Here's what I have to trade; which items do you want? That's too much; take out this, this, and this and you can have the rest of what you asked for. Deal?"
What If I accidentally trade a super valuable item for a trash item? The shop owner will of course have no problem with this, but I would be screwed.

Sounds like a boring chore than anything close to fun.

I'd like (highest) barter skill to affect your party value estimates(not hidden, in some arbitrary ranger dollars at worst case) and also how large of a margin you can make with a trader - trader shouldn't care about missing a single dollar from a $10k transaction, the fact that transaction takes place he's already making profit.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby CaptainPatch » April 24th, 2012, 9:54 am

suz wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:"You want to buy this thing? What are you offering? Naw, you're going to have to sweeten the deal. More. More. Good enough. Anything you want to sell? Here's what I have to trade; which items do you want? That's too much; take out this, this, and this and you can have the rest of what you asked for. Deal?"
What If I accidentally trade a super valuable item for a trash item? The shop owner will of course have no problem with this, but I would be screwed.

Sounds like a boring chore than anything close to fun.

Well, if we want to simplify the process: Single currency with no inflation/deflation variables; prices are fixed. Lump everything you want to unload into one bundle and sell all of that at one go. Then just keep ticking items that you want to acquire until you run out of money or you don't want to sell anymore. Boom; done. Not very realistic at all, but it gets the chore over and done with in the shortest amount of time. Maybe keep the Barter Skill element to gradually get better prices. Perhaps have an Option between "Realistic Economy" and "Simplified Economy". [Unlikely to happen in a game development with limited resources. Other game elements would most likely have a higher priority.]
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby Emmy Lou » April 24th, 2012, 10:12 am

suz wrote:trader shouldn't care about missing a single dollar from a $10k transaction, the fact that transaction takes place he's already making profit.

You haven't met a lot of business owners, have you?


As for Fuzion's point about knowing value, I agree we should see what the merchant is offering for your stuff when you're in the shop and things are on the table, because he goes "Hm, I'll give you ___ for it". But I don't like the system FO3/NV had where you seem to have an omni-catalogue in your head of every item that exists that you can index when you look in a crate or when looting some jerk you fragged. I rather like having to judge for myself what something is worth and taking my chances with showing up with a heavy piece of hardware at a merchant like "Eh? Eh?" and he's like "Phh, dime a dozen. 10 WASTEBUCKS™ for it" (yyyyeah, WASTEBUCKS, this is definitely a good name for currency, good one Emmy :roll: ). I'm a packrat too, Fuzion, don't get me wrong, but I don't like when I psychicly know everything in a game. Especially if it's something I've never even heard of before.

Perhaps if there is a value attached, it is tied to your barter skill as your wheel'n'dealin' ways have given you a good eye for value. So, say your barter skill is low, items may have a wild range of values. You pick up some leather armour and it says 90-230 value. Shit, is it worth it? How much is leather worth? Damn.
But a seasoned tradesperson is gonna know the merchants she's dealt with and be able to gauge what they'll be excited to see. Leather is 190-205, and even with new things not in her omni-catalogue she can go "MESSON CANON?? This will net me at least 31,000-33,000!!" and her eyes go ($__$) because that's what happens to people with high barter skills; they turn into Scrooge McDuck.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby b0rsuk » April 24th, 2012, 10:14 am

Barter system sounds fun to me. Items could have value depending on how much does a settlement have and how much does it need.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby Sharpstone » April 24th, 2012, 10:31 am

Like most I feel that Barter is the realistic way to go and different areas would accept certain things and not others. Prices would be all over the map and you as a player would have to keep track for your own self. If your going to have currency, wouldn't it be neat to come across a Mint in the game and with some elbow grease and some scavenging of parts be able to print/coin money. The Rangers could have a moral dilemma of keeping it to themselves or reporting the find to Ranger central to benefit the region as a whole. Just my two cents, spend um or toss um, up to you.....lol
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby suz » April 24th, 2012, 10:54 am

Emmy Lou wrote:
suz wrote:trader shouldn't care about missing a single dollar from a $10k transaction, the fact that transaction takes place he's already making profit.

You haven't met a lot of business owners, have you?

Actually I have, the more successful ones are the ones who make money on volume, not margins.
The merchants are ALREADY taking a cut, in some RPGs the cut can be up to 80-90%, 10% from a transaction doesn't play a role here. Trading half a kingdom and a wrench for a minigun and having the merchant go "Nope bud, you're one dollar short" is a bit hard on suspense of disbelief.

Emmy Lou wrote:the rest of the stuff

That's pretty much what I said.

Well, if we want to simplify the process

I want a relatively simple process that won't take me a few minutes to find something in the merchant's stock to trade a couple pistols for.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby CaptainPatch » April 24th, 2012, 11:25 am

b0rsuk wrote:What Is Money ?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gizetn5VuA0
The 17 minute lecture describes very fundamentals of money in simple terms and few sentences.

Interesting video; well worth the 17 minutes!

There were a few points that I beg to differ with:
1) He stated that the ONLY barter exchange would be if party A was offering what party B wanted AND party B wanted what A was offering. This ignores circular barter trades -- Party A offers item-A which party B wants, but what party A wants item-C. Fortunately, party C wants what party B offers. To get what party B wants (item-A), he trades his item-B to party C. He then takes item-C back to party A and exchanges it for item-A, which is what party B wanted in the first place. It's a clunky and time-consuming process, but it does work. Quartermasters in the military are notorious for that kind of wheeling-and-dealing, making circular trades that could extend out to party L or party M before everyone in the circular exchange gets what they want.

2) The lecturer contended that there was only two ways for a government to make money: collect taxes from citizens, or pump up the money supply. There is a third method: tariffs. Goods imported into the nation are charged fees up front from the party selling the goods. This brings in money from other nations. Understandably, the party selling those goods raises his prices to recoup what was spent on tariffs. This is actually desirable because it limits "cheap goods from overseas" from undercutting the sales price of goods produced and sold locally. Buying local goods keeps the money circulating within the nation. Buying foreign goods just sends money out of the nation and the local Economy makes no gain from the transaction. When the US Founding Fathers established the Federal government, they envisioned that the entire cost of operating the Federal government would be paid for by the tariffs collected. Unfortunately for We The People, the biggest purchasers of foreign goods are Big Businesses and the Very Wealthy (who pretty much own Big Business). In order to reduce how much they pay for those foreign goods, they kept on promoting the reduction of tariffs via legislation. This is why the US has such a HUGE deficit in the Balance of Trade in terms of dollar-value. It has gotten soooo out of balance with the rest of the world that the US is seriously hemorrhaging money. For example, a US-made auto going to Japan pays 22% in tariffs while a Chinese auto going to the US pays less than 5%. There has been talking about raising US tariffs significantly, but in retaliation China and other countries are also talking about significantly raising their tariffs significantly. They have gotten so used to the low US tariff rate that they now feel it is their birthright.

3) The lecturer indicated pretty clearly that he favors monarchy over democracy, suggesting that a monarchy WILL have lower debt than a democracy. However, under a monarchy, all you need is one tyrant or incompetent on the throne and the nation can go from zero to bankrupt in hardly any time at all. (Mad Ludwig of Bavaria comes to mind.) OTOH, once that monarch gets replaced, his successor might turn it around quickly. In contrast, in a democracy, it takes a majority of elected officials to collectively bollix the Economy. The trouble is, once that Majority is achieved, those incompetent elected officials can modify the government to assure that the Majority stays with those incompetents in control. [Just look at the Economic state of the US and then notice that over half of the elected representatives are out-and-out millionaires. (With most non-millionaires becoming millionaires after they leave office. Why might that be?) Just whose interests do you think those representatives are most likely to represent?]

Other than these points, a fine lecture!
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby b0rsuk » April 24th, 2012, 2:21 pm

CaptainPatch wrote:There were a few points that I beg to differ with:
1) He stated that the ONLY barter exchange would be if party A was offering what party B wanted AND party B wanted what A was offering. This ignores circular barter trades


He mentions that at 1:30 :

"What can I do then in a situation when I'm stuck and cannot directly trade ? Then I can just simply look out for individuals that have goods that have a higher degree of marketability than the good that I have to sell."

I don't comment on tariffs because I have no opinion on that. But it's probably worth mentioning that some now consider dollar to be a unit of debt, not a unit of value. Something to do with 1973 and Richard Nixon removing the relation between dollar and gold. They also pressured the world into adopting the same strategy (in 1971 I think) so as to not be at a disadvantage.

While I consider some of these things interesting, I'm not an expert on this matter, and I don't live in US.
3) The lecturer indicated pretty clearly that he favors monarchy over democracy, suggesting that a monarchy WILL have lower debt than a democracy. However, under a monarchy, all you need is one tyrant or incompetent on the throne and the nation can go from zero to bankrupt in hardly any time at all.


It seems we agree on many topics. Occasional dictator is a flaw of monarchy. Recently, even researchers start to say that democracy doesn't select best options by default. Democracy is prone to populism, for example. What democracy is good at is filtering out bad options.

Consider economic reforms after the fall of socialism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balcerowicz_Plan
There's a small table with core metrics for several countries. The reform in Poland was a shock therapy, very unpopular at the time but proved highly effective. Meanwhile Romania is still in deep trouble. They couldn't pass a reform like that.

This article is not about democracy, but I found it very insightful. It mentions things like the jellybean experiment, "Who Wants to be a Millionaire", catering companies, etc.
http://blog.asmartbear.com/ignoring-the ... rowds.html
Choice quotes: "The TV studio audience predicts the correct answer an astonishing 91% of the time.", "votes become vetoes". It's great food for thought, it talks about what voting is and isn't good for.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if best parts of monarchy and democracy can be combined. And how...
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby CaptainPatch » April 24th, 2012, 2:43 pm

b0rsuk wrote:He mentions that at 1:30 :

"What can I do then in a situation when I'm stuck and cannot directly trade ? Then I can just simply look out for individuals that have goods that have a higher degree of marketability than the good that I have to sell."

That is actually what is referred to as a "medium of exchange". That is, things commonly accepted by the majority of people. It eventually leads to coinage of inherent value = gold and silver coins. A circular transaction involves a series of traders, each of which wants only ONE specific thing. Sometimes called a "round robin". To make it work, you have to ascertain what each trader has, and what each of them wants. Do it enough times and you get a handle on the Supply-and-Demand in each location.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby Inca » April 24th, 2012, 2:54 pm

At the risk of sounding really stupid (as I am not an expert in economy, but I had experience in barter economy) I am going to throw an idea out there:
Use corn as a currency.
I have observed use of non-perishable food, like rice or wheet, in devastated society. Everyone needs it. Production is limited and certain amount is constantly destroyed by evryone, so overall supply is proportional to population and relatively stable if a sytem of grainaries and elevators is etablished. So sort of like gold the supply is relatively limited, but can be expanded with economy.
It's light (unlike ammo), divisible, always usable by everyone(unlike ammo of wrong caliber), it will not evaporate like water or sip through the ground.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby cmagruder » April 24th, 2012, 3:41 pm

Corn's an interesting idea. Tobacco/alcohol too.

Barter wise, I really sort of liked something I found in the Fallout 3 Wanderer's Edition mod. The Outcast Brotherhood of Steel took in futuristic weaponry of many sorts for credit points which could be used for a wide variety of items/ammo. The original system demanded immediate payout and had limited selection. This system enabled you to store credit and pick from a wide selection.
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Re: What makes a currency viable?

Postby CaptainPatch » April 24th, 2012, 6:04 pm

Using food goods is still essentially barter, but with "goods that have a higher degree of marketability" as they said in the Econ video. It's eminently doable, but I wonder what would be gained by using such a system. You would still have a situation where something like a suit of Power Armor would cost several hundred sacks of rice. A tradesman's "cash register" would be a grain silo. And every time harvest time rolls around, the currency has a cycle of hyperinflation. (If you didn't, that would = poor harvest = famine = spending "money" would lead to starvation.)
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