Sleeping, Health - Points?

[Fuzi0n]

Stimpacks would abrogate one of the signature aspects of the original Wasteland, the lack of "magical" healing potions.

Well, I consider the way you healed yourself in Wasteland (resting) to be magical. Injuries that would take weeks or months to heal are healed within hours in wasteland.

That is why I like stimpacks. They are an advanced futuristic technology that inject nanites into your body, which can "repair" damaged tissue. There is nothing "magical" about that.

[paultakeda]

That is why I like stimpacks. They are an advanced futuristic technology that inject nanites into your body, which can "repair" damaged tissue. There is nothing "magical" about that.

No, but I liked not having them in Wasteland. Its health system made a lot of sense without advanced insta-heal items. I would rather wait it out and accelerate healing via applying skills and items that enhance skills rather than single use, instant effect items.

[CaptainPatch]

You guys realize that in 1988, the various game memes were still NOT solidified, right? Stimpacks hadn't even been invented yet in any game from before then that I am aware of. So going with a time passage healing mechanic was nothing more than avoiding using "healing potions", which don't sound SciFi-ish enough. That is, Fargo wasn't making a choice between time healing and stimpacks and deciding to go with time healing. In fact, there probably wasn't even any deliberate choice involved.

[paultakeda]

You guys realize that in 1988, the various game memes were still NOT solidified, right? Stimpacks hadn't even been invented yet in any game from before then that I am aware of. So going with a time passage healing mechanic was nothing more than avoiding using "healing potions", which don't sound SciFi-ish enough. That is, Fargo wasn't making a choice between time healing and stimpacks and deciding to go with time healing. In fact, there probably wasn't even any deliberate choice involved.

The concept of a healing potion or spell certainly existed by then. They made ad active choice to not implement a similar mechanic in Wasteland. I would say some form of deliberate choice was made with respect to the way the health system worked in WL-MSPE.

[Fuzi0n]

The concept of a healing potion or spell certainly existed by then. They made ad active choice to not implement a similar mechanic in Wasteland.

They probably didn't want to complicate the design of the game any further. Interplay was real small back then.

I am not sure if this true though, I am just guessing. You would have to ask Brian why they didn't include stimpacks or something similar in the game.

That is why I like stimpacks. They are an advanced futuristic technology that inject nanites into your body, which can "repair" damaged tissue. There is nothing "magical" about that.

No, but I liked not having them in Wasteland. Its health system made a lot of sense without advanced insta-heal items. I would rather wait it out and accelerate healing via applying skills and items that enhance skills rather than single use, instant effect items.

Fair enough. I don't have a problem with healing by resting... BUT it should at least make a little sense, like you have to use a doctors bag or something on a character, otherwise he won't heal while your team is resting. The Doctors bag should also have only a limited amount of "charges" (if balancing allows this of course). I don't want the game to be too easy.

[Zombra]

You guys realize that in 1988, the various game memes were still NOT solidified, right? Stimpacks hadn't even been invented yet in any game from before then that I am aware of. So going with a time passage healing mechanic was nothing more than avoiding using "healing potions", which don't sound SciFi-ish enough. That is, Fargo wasn't making a choice between time healing and stimpacks and deciding to go with time healing. In fact, there probably wasn't even any deliberate choice involved.

Yeah, sorry Cap, I gotta call bullshit on that. paul nailed it. The healing item was not a revolutionary idea at that time, and an eight year old could have thought up an advanced chemistry healing pill. Wasteland's elaborate health and injury system was designed that way on purpose.

[Woolfe]

Fair enough. I don't have a problem with healing by resting... BUT it should at least make a little sense, like you have to use a doctors bag or something on a character, otherwise he won't heal while your team is resting. The Doctors bag should also have only a limited amount of "charges" (if balancing allows this of course). I don't want the game to be too easy.

You are thinking about it the wrong way.

The healing you are doing is the little stuff, the nicks and cuts and bruises, the exhaustion etc, associated with having been in a fight.

Any other injuries SERious, CRiTical and MORtal, have to have been healed prior to that using an appropriate skill.

So the magical healing over time bit is just your body recovering from its ordeal. Sure it shorter than reality, but it still has to be playable.

[Drool]

The healing item was not a revolutionary idea at that time, and an eight year old could have thought up an advanced chemistry healing pill.

Not only that, but it's not like Fallout started it. Mars Saga, a game for the C64 also from 1988, had several healing items, including bandages, injections, and several classes of med kit. From skimming a rather detailed walkthrough on GameFAQs, it looks kind of like Jagged Aliance's great grandpappy.

[paultakeda]

The concept of a healing potion or spell certainly existed by then. They made ad active choice to not implement a similar mechanic in Wasteland.

They probably didn't want to complicate the design of the game any further. Interplay was real small back then.

I disagree. The health system in Wasteland is far more complex than a lot of games that incorporated the healing item mechanic. There was a decision to limit inventory slots and to have a CON system with multiple levels of injury that required a level of skill to stabilize as part of game play design. In that design, the healing item would have made the sewers in Vegas dead simple.

I don't mind your example of a doctor's bag. It was said as much in the thread on using items as skill modifiers. The main difference is that a medkit aids an untrained character to perform a medic skill whereas a medic gains a boost using the item, but does not need it to use the skill at base level.

[Fuzi0n]

The concept of a healing potion or spell certainly existed by then. They made ad active choice to not implement a similar mechanic in Wasteland.

They probably didn't want to complicate the design of the game any further. Interplay was real small back then.

I disagree. The health system in Wasteland is far more complex than a lot of games that incorporated the healing item mechanic. There was a decision to limit inventory slots and to have a CON system with multiple levels of injury that required a level of skill to stabilize as part of game play design. In that design, the healing item would have made the sewers in Vegas dead simple.

Not in my opinion, seeing that healing items are limited. In WL you could rest (heal) as much as you wanted to... Except if you were diseased of course.

I still think it is cheap that you can heal as often as you want to in Wasteland by just hitting the esc button.
At least if the game has healing items (medkits, stimpacks, doctors bag, whatever) then healing will be limited. So if you run out of stim packs, then you probably are going to be in a lot of trouble.

Anyway, Wasteland's CON system is very interesting. Instead of dieing when your HP hits 0, you just lose consciousness. It is a nice kind of insurance in case you fuck up.

[Zombra]

I still think it is cheap that you can heal as often as you want to in Wasteland by just hitting the esc button.

Agree. Wasteland's system was good, but not perfect. I think the ever present threat of random encounters is a good balancing factor for unlimited resting.

[tuluse]

I still think it is cheap that you can heal as often as you want to in Wasteland by just hitting the esc button.

Agree. Wasteland's system was good, but not perfect. I think the ever present threat of random encounters is a good balancing factor for unlimited resting.

That or time dependent quests.

[Zombra]

Yeah, that too.

[CaptainPatch]

You guys realize that in 1988, the various game memes were still NOT solidified, right? Stimpacks hadn't even been invented yet in any game from before then that I am aware of. So going with a time passage healing mechanic was nothing more than avoiding using "healing potions", which don't sound SciFi-ish enough. That is, Fargo wasn't making a choice between time healing and stimpacks and deciding to go with time healing. In fact, there probably wasn't even any deliberate choice involved.

The concept of a healing potion or spell certainly existed by then. They made ad active choice to not implement a similar mechanic in Wasteland. I would say some form of deliberate choice was made with respect to the way the health system worked in WL-MSPE.

Which is why I pointed out that healing potions and magical spells would break from the SciFi theme of the game. It would play about the same as being in an energy weapon firefight and a character breaks out a Wand of Lightning. It breaks the SciFi mood. So not surprisingly, those things didn't get used.

You folks don't seem to be at all concerned that characters can go to any Doctor's Office and be cured of absolutely anything instantaneously (provided you have enough money). Why is it so difficult to envision that same technology made into something miniaturized and made portable? "The possibilities of advanced Science are limitless."

[Zombra]

Why is it so difficult to envision that same technology made into something miniaturized and made portable?

It's not. It's not difficult at all. Everyone here completely comprehends the concept of stimpaks. I have no doubt whatsoever that Brian had already thought of them or something like them back in 1988. Nevertheless, Wasteland did not use them or anything like them, because the design did not demand them. The design actually would have suffered had they been thrown in.

Nobody ever said, "OK, we need healing potions for our combat system" ... "But that's impossible! This is a science fiction game! There's no way to have anything like that! I wish we could, but I guess we have to design a complex and interesting system that doesn't use them instead."

[CaptainPatch]

Why is it so difficult to envision that same technology made into something miniaturized and made portable?

It's not. It's not difficult at all. Everyone here completely comprehends the concept of stimpaks. I have no doubt whatsoever that Brian had already thought of them or something like them back in 1988. Nevertheless, Wasteland did not use them or anything like them, because the design did not demand them.

This is starting to sound like a religious debate over whose _beliefs_ are superior. As far as I know, there hasn't been a single statement _ever_ from Brian on the subject of time healing versus stimpacks. Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zilch. But because you "have no doubt whatsoever that Brian had already thought of them or something like them back in 1988", it becomes obvious to you that he DID precisely that. That is an article of _faith_, not fact. I could claim just as vigorously that Brian never even considered something like stimpacks, otherwise he probably would have incorporated them instead of relying on the party pausing in its trek every half-day to then spend 1 day plus to allow the party to heal. Either approach breaks the mood by introducing a pointedly unrealistic mechanism to allow the party to recover from injuries frequently. Based on what evidence is on hand, neither argument can be _proven_.

That is, until such time as Brian steps forward to make a For The Record statement. (I wonder why he doesn't take two minutes of his time to do just that, given that the staff apparently keeps track on everything being discussed in the forums.)

[Woolfe]

I still think it is cheap that you can heal as often as you want to in Wasteland by just hitting the esc button.

Agree. Wasteland's system was good, but not perfect. I think the ever present threat of random encounters is a good balancing factor for unlimited resting.

See the more I think about it the more I prefer the wasteland system.

The concept of "Resting" to improve your general health works for me.
Then having skills that affect "non-general" health issues also works.

In addition
I think the concept of having items that "assist" the skills is a good idea.
I also don't mind the concept of short term "boosts" that then "require" rest to account for. (taking pep pills type thing).

I think it works as well as any other system. Better in some ways. Sure its a little painful at times, especially if you keep getting hit with Random encounters, but thats part of the pressure on it. If you can't handle the heat, then you've gone into an area that is above your level

[Zombra]

[Faith and so on]

Hey, you started it by saying they never even thought of putting healing items into Wasteland. That seems ridiculous to me, but I'm perfectly happy to drop that question and return to the relevant one: are healing potions necessary and/or desirable in Wasteland 2? They were neither necessary nor desirable in Wasteland 1, so ... my answer would be no.

To frame the question differently: What was so bad about Wasteland's system? Pressing Esc to rest a lot seems to be the only downside. Eliminate that (with a "rest for 8 hours" or "rest until healed" button), and we're good, aren't we? Would that be so horrible?

[CaptainPatch]

I still think it is cheap that you can heal as often as you want to in Wasteland by just hitting the esc button.

Agree. Wasteland's system was good, but not perfect. I think the ever present threat of random encounters is a good balancing factor for unlimited resting.

See the more I think about it the more I prefer the wasteland system.

The concept of "Resting" to improve your general health works for me.

In practice, what I discovered almost immediately in WL was that all the party needed to have unlimited uninterrupted time was to step through a door and NOT move from that spot. There could be encounters just around the corner, but NOT moving wouldn't trigger them. Days and days and days, weeks, months of NOT moving, just leaning on the Esc key.

Yup. Waaaaaaayyyyyyy more realistic than using a device to heal quickly. Just a bit rough on the keyboard though.

[Zombra]

In practice, what I discovered almost immediately in WL was that all the party needed to have unlimited uninterrupted time was to step through a door and NOT move from that spot. There could be encounters just around the corner, but NOT moving wouldn't trigger them. Days and days and days, weeks, months of NOT moving, just leaning on the Esc key.

Yeah. Let's change that for Wasteland 2. Make it so that random encounters can actually, you know, be encountered