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Ranger origin story

Discuss when and where Wasteland 2 will be set, continuity problems, and more.

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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby malthaussen » June 17th, 2012, 7:05 am

Woolfe wrote:
CaptainPatch wrote:
Woolfe wrote:Not Marine, Engineers.


Woolfe added:
And my point still stands.
There is a mentality in the Marines, or indeed in any front line combat force, that allows them to charge up beaches, hills etc, at enemy fortified positions, even though they know they will take casualties.
Whereas engineers are meant to be building things, whether under fire or not. (Preferably not, as bullets are not generally conducive to design and construction.

I have a feeling Woolfe never read the book The Damned Engineers, which is alas out of print now.

But the bottom line to this discussion seems to be that Woolfe believes the balance of probability lies with the officers and engineers of the group succumbing to panic and committing what amounts to an atrocity, while at least two persons with combat experience and expertise (and one civilian, myself) believe that the balance of probability lies with them living up to training and tradition and working out a response contrary to what is given in the "official" document.

Ultimately, counter-factual questions can have no definite answers. That's what makes them fun/irritating.

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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby Woolfe » June 17th, 2012, 2:28 pm

malthaussen wrote:
But the bottom line to this discussion seems to be that Woolfe believes the balance of probability lies with the officers and engineers of the group succumbing to panic and committing what amounts to an atrocity, while at least two persons with combat experience and expertise (and one civilian, myself) believe that the balance of probability lies with them living up to training and tradition and working out a response contrary to what is given in the "official" document.

Ultimately, counter-factual questions can have no definite answers. That's what makes them fun/irritating.

-- Mal


Actually that is not what I said at all. It was one of my suggestions, as Panic can be a cause of incompetence, but it is by no means the only method.
In many cases the people I have seen making bad decisions have been quite sure and confident in their decisions at the time, as indeed have their cronies that they have put into position around them.
I have also seen bad decisions made by people who would normally be quite capable. But whether it was an off day or whether there was some other circumstance that caused it. It does happen.

The point I was making was that it is not impossible. And in the context of the game it has occured, therefore the possiblity that someone made a decision through incompetence or panic, is a plausible possibility.

The reality is we don't have enough information. But if any of you can honestly say to me that you have never seen someone(or a group of someones) make a mistake, or almost make a mistake, then frankly I would be dumbfounded.

You seem to have this concept of infallibility in the armed forces. Which in light of history is quite frankly crazy.
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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby malthaussen » June 17th, 2012, 6:04 pm

Infallability? No. There is a reason I use the term "balance of probability."

Reducing your argument to one of "panic" was over-reductive, agreed. Consider it changed to "panic or incompetence."

Institutional thinking can lead to a variety of unfortunate outcomes. One reason the Engineers might have turned out the prisoners was that they couldn't think of anything better to do. Since you're a civilian contractor working with the military, you probably see a lot of this sort of thing.:)

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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby Woolfe » June 17th, 2012, 9:34 pm

malthaussen wrote:Infallability? No. There is a reason I use the term "balance of probability."

Reducing your argument to one of "panic" was over-reductive, agreed. Consider it changed to "panic or incompetence."

Institutional thinking can lead to a variety of unfortunate outcomes. One reason the Engineers might have turned out the prisoners was that they couldn't think of anything better to do. Since you're a civilian contractor working with the military, you probably see a lot of this sort of thing.:)

-- Mal


Was a civilian contractor, no longer, got away from that company years ago.

What I mostly saw was the same thing I see everywhere, people using technical solutions to solve management problems. Altho in all fairness the defence force was much better about some stuff than others. And they were definately more decisive when it came to day to day operations.

And the Balance of Probability should be skewed somewhat.

This is a massive event, not just on a command level but on a personal level as well.
I don't think I am explaining myself correctly either, because I don't think my point is being understood.

This is a very unique situation. If we break the factors down into smaller elements.
1 - Multiple Nuclear mushroom clouds, indicating massive attack on the country. Obvious deduction WW3. Now that is a huge psychological hit, when you think about it. We aren't just talking about a conflict in some nation somewhere in the world, this is an attack on your own country. More than that it is a Nuclear attack, something that is a nightmare concept to people who truly understand it.
2 - You have lost contact with HQ. In fact you have basically lost comms with everyone. At first you still hold out hope to be able to re-establish comms. But Eventually you determine that there will be no comms, which brings you to the opinion of no one left outside of immediate region.
3 - Recon teams etc that are sent out return with news that you are currently isolated. So much so that added to the comms issue you start to believe that you are the last people alive(incorrectly as you discover later, I presume something prevented the recon teams travelling through an area that they are now able to).

I understand that units are often expected to operate alone, out of contact etc. But this is complete loss, to the extent that the belief is that command is gone, which means the commander is now it. They are in charge, they now have the respoibility of it all. Add to it that this is not a wartime event. So that added build up of pyscohlogical barriers is not present. It would be a very unique individual that could weather that level of pressure and not have some degree of stress.
I'm not saying people wouldn't handle it, but I am saying that it would be something to consider. There is a whole wad of Pyschology theories around military psychology, this is a pretty goddamn extreme situation dealing with what may be seen as the end of the world. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a number of suicides as people realise the extent of the change that is upon them. Especially once you get hit with a Nuclear Winter. Perhaps some suffer radiation poisoning.
All of these things coupled together add up to a whole lot of pressure.
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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby CaptainPatch » June 17th, 2012, 10:24 pm

Woolfe wrote:2 - You have lost contact with HQ. In fact you have basically lost comms with everyone. At first you still hold out hope to be able to re-establish comms. But Eventually you determine that there will be no comms, which brings you to the opinion of no one left outside of immediate region.

When do you believe that they stopped holding out hope? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Where along that timeline do you think the decision to kick the prisoners loose would have been made? _Before_ hope is lost would imply that they were piling on another problem to their mound of woes. (What happens if any freed prisoners go on to commit major crimes?) _After_ the loss of hope, then it would just be part of the "We're ALL doomed anyway" attitude.
"If you don't know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."

"Choose wisely."
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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby Drool » June 17th, 2012, 10:28 pm

Woolfe wrote:All of these things coupled together add up to a whole lot of pressure.

That's the point I tried to make earlier in this thread. My contention was always that an all out nuclear exchange was orders of magnitude beyond what anyone can really be prepared for. It's not a slight against military personnel, but the human mind can only handle so much stress and distress before even the most ingrained training cracks. And if its someone in a position of authority who cracks first, that can be enough to cause a ripple effect. I'm sure that some people would be able to keep their head on straight in the middle of the apocalypse, but it's not outside the bounds of reality that many wouldn't, and that they might do something they wouldn't normally do. In fact, I still think that the people who are able to be unfazed by seeing mushroom clouds on the horizon and still follow military code to the letter would be in the minority.
Alwa nasci korliri das.
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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby derekticon » June 17th, 2012, 10:40 pm

Hi CPT Patch, fellows,

Here's my proposed revision of Ranger's origins - based on the existing canon.

Facts:

(1) There's a Federal maximum security prison
(2) There's a company of combat engineers working near by
(3) There's survival communities dotting the country side
(4) Combat engineers moved into Federal Prison
(5) Expulsion of prisoners.

ORIGINS OF DESERT RANGERS: LEADERSHIP AND CORE OF DESERT RANGERS CONSTITUTED BY PRISON WARDENS.

Here's my assumption:

- A federal maximum security prison may have a prisoner population size of 2,500 - 5,000 (using Louisiana State Penitentiary as a reference);

- There's a staff:prisoner ratio of 1:3; If given that the prison has a population 2,500, it will need at least a staff of about 800 to run the place. That's about a battalion size. But given that this is a law enforcement unit, the federal prison complex is likely to be commanded by an officer of at least O6 or O7 in rank. There will be at least a company sized SWAT element for prison riot control etc. This unit is likely to be armed with armoured vehicles, high caliber weapons, breaching explosives, chemical agents, riot armour - enough fire power to do a counter-attack in the event when prisoners take over sections of the prison complex.

- The combat engineer company is headed by an officer no higher than a O3 or O4.

When the engineer company walk into the prison complex, the entire unit is likely to be out-ranked, out-numbered and out-gunned by the warden staff (combat engineers are likely to be un-armed or at most carrying minimal ammo since they're carrying out construction activities within a secure zone - peacetime continental USA)

There's no way the company engineer can take-over the federal prison if the wardens were still able to maintain order.

Since the Desert Rangers are based on law-enforcement Arizona or Texas Rangers, it's likely that the Desert Rangers were formed by the para-military unit of the warden staff - given their affinity to law enforcement tradition.

Perhaps, the CO of the federal prison and his principle staff have roots in either the Arizona or Texas Rangers.

Now, what does the military combat engineers bring to the table - or how could they be co-opted or absorbed into the federal prison service: access to national assets such as C4ISR systems, the ability to reconnect the federal prison to the national power/communications grid, expertise in maintaining infrastructure.


POTENTIAL RETCON PLOT-ELEMENTS: EXPULSION OF PRISONERS, LOSS OF COMMUNICATIONS WITH REST OF USA

The reasons behind expulsion of prisoners could be re-visited.

Was there a prison riot? If prisoners know that it's the eve of apocalypse, will they be motivated to make a putsch for freedom? If so, was the prison staff able to handle the riot? When the engineers came - did they manage to tilt the balance and put down the riot? Was the prison riot the basis for the exile of trouble makers?

Loss of Communications. Perhaps, the prison wardens chose to isolate themselves from the rest of the world while the riot was going on - due to the atrocities committed by both sides (wardens and prisoners) during the riot and chose to remain quiet about what happened?
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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby CaptainPatch » June 17th, 2012, 10:45 pm

Drool wrote:
Woolfe wrote:All of these things coupled together add up to a whole lot of pressure.

That's the point I tried to make earlier in this thread. My contention was always that an all out nuclear exchange was orders of magnitude beyond what anyone can really be prepared for.

An excellent book to read is Alas, Babylon, by Pat Frank and released in 1959 (_before_ the Cuban Missile Crisis). It suggests a broad spectrum to how a wide variety of people would react to the sudden manifestation of Apocalypse Day.

An excellent read; I highly recommend it. It might lend some insight to how military veterans (in or out of active service) react to an MAJOR everything-goes-to-hell situation.
"If you don't know what is worth dying for, Life isn't worth living."

"Choose wisely."
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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby DanielUSMC » June 17th, 2012, 11:37 pm

I know many Army Corps of Engineers officers and enlisted... however, I do have to agree that the basic mentality of frontline Marines vice the Army may be different (My position is obviously biased). I just wanted to add my two cents in as what a Marine Officer would do in this type of situation. And to answer your question Cap, HESCO barriers were readily available (Especially with Engineer Units) in the 90's .. in fact they were a ready part of any Engineer Platoon Table of Equipment. And in the event that there are not enough to establish a well fortified FOB ... well lets just say I have first hand experience of seeing engineers crafting their own versions of HESCO barriers...they are very simple.. pretty much a gated box with a tarp on the inside that you fill with dirt... nothing stops a bullet better than a thick-ass dirt wall reinforced with steel beams in the middle (which are usually pounded into the HESCO barriers during the improvement of your defenses.
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Re: Ranger origin story

Postby Woolfe » June 18th, 2012, 12:01 am

CaptainPatch wrote:
Woolfe wrote:2 - You have lost contact with HQ. In fact you have basically lost comms with everyone. At first you still hold out hope to be able to re-establish comms. But Eventually you determine that there will be no comms, which brings you to the opinion of no one left outside of immediate region.

When do you believe that they stopped holding out hope? Minutes? Hours? Days? Weeks? Where along that timeline do you think the decision to kick the prisoners loose would have been made? _Before_ hope is lost would imply that they were piling on another problem to their mound of woes. (What happens if any freed prisoners go on to commit major crimes?) _After_ the loss of hope, then it would just be part of the "We're ALL doomed anyway" attitude.


It doesn't matter. Either or. This is a unique event something no one is prepared for. We don't know when they kicked them out.

It could have been straight away due to fucked up shit, or months later when the depression at realising they are the last people left is at its worst, supplies are low, all seems lost etc. Who knows. Thats not the point. I am not trying to be EXACT, I am offering suggestions as to why this may have occured.

CaptainPatch wrote:An excellent book to read is Alas, Babylon, by Pat Frank and released in 1959 (_before_ the Cuban Missile Crisis). It suggests a broad spectrum to how a wide variety of people would react to the sudden manifestation of Apocalypse Day.

An excellent read; I highly recommend it. It might lend some insight to how military veterans (in or out of active service) react to an MAJOR everything-goes-to-hell situation.


[Sarcasm]Really, shit I didn't realise the Cuban crisis ended in Nuclear apocalypse... I'd better give mum a quick call.
[/Sarcasm]

Its still all theory. Insight is one thing, but the simple fact there are soldiers and officers who suffer from military related psychological issues tells me that not everyone deals with things the same way. Even those who are trained/indoctrinated to deal with it.

I'm sorry Captain, I respect a lot of what you say, but this is no longer an argument, its you stating it is "impossible", and me saying no its "implausible".
Happy for others to get involved tho, I would very much like to hear from Daniel again.

Wow that was quick ;)

Sorry Daniel, as I have said, I am not attacking in any way, I am just trying to justify the possibility it might happen.
Mostly because it fits into the story, but also because in my experience the weakest link is almost always human related. My experience is vastly different obviously, stupidity in my field doesn't often lead to death, but its still stupidity.
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