WL2 geography

[Zeronet]

Located directly south of their position on that day was a newly-constructed federal prison. In addition to housing the nation's criminals condemned to death, the prison contained light industrial manufacturing facilities.

Sounds like it wasn't just 100% death row, but every death row inmate for the whole nation.

Well this is where it gets confusing, because why would a Federal Prison hold state prisoners? I can understand it holding the nations Federal Death Row, because since 1988 when it reinstated, thats 69 people.

On the other hand, if it for some reason held state prisoners, that's thousands of people and would make it a truely huge prison. I'm going to open another thread to discuss this, it's really rather interesting.

[CaptainPatch]

Well this is where it gets confusing, because why would a Federal Prison hold state prisoners? I can understand it holding the nations Federal Death Row, because since 1988 when it reinstated, thats 69 people.

On the other hand, if it for some reason held state prisoners, that's thousands of people and would make it a truly huge prison. I'm going to open another thread to discuss this, it's really rather interesting.

Prisoners held in a Federal prison were convicted of crimes against the nation OR inter-State crimes. (Serial killers busy in several States, kidnappers, thieves crossing State lines, violators of the Mann Act, etc.) But to have such a LARGE number of Death Row inmates indicates that there were some changes to Federal Law that made something punishable by death. The only thing that comes to mind is Treason. (Or more likely, a convenient label for the Government to get rid of any citizens that have become a pain-in-the-posterior = political dissidents. "Conspiring to commit terrorism" sounds like a convenient death penalty charge.)

[Woolfe]

Located directly south of their position on that day was a newly-constructed federal prison. In addition to housing the nation's criminals condemned to death, the prison contained light industrial manufacturing facilities.

Sounds like it wasn't just 100% death row, but every death row inmate for the whole nation.

Well this is where it gets confusing, because why would a Federal Prison hold state prisoners? I can understand it holding the nations Federal Death Row, because since 1988 when it reinstated, thats 69 people.

On the other hand, if it for some reason held state prisoners, that's thousands of people and would make it a truely huge prison. I'm going to open another thread to discuss this, it's really rather interesting.

I'm unsure of how the US system works, but I would assume a fair degree of overlap between something like a prison. Federal money builds it, but it exists in a state area, so there would be some level of state involvement (even if they were just objecting to it). So maybe the Federal government forces the state to run it. Or the State volunteered to house and run it on the proviso that they get extra funding in another area or some such.

Maybe the Federal facility was an extension to an existing state facility?

[ladyshade]

One thing that seems to be generally overlooked here is the water/gulf. Given that creating agriculture would be a good idea but definitely hard, a rickety boat/raft and fishing line may make more sense. The water could also easily be a way around heavily radiated areas. Sail past them to the south and east or south and west. Stay as close to the shore as you dare, but either way it seems very viable.

[CaptainPatch]

One thing that seems to be generally overlooked here is the water/gulf. Given that creating agriculture would be a good idea but definitely hard, a rickety boat/raft and fishing line may make more sense. The water could also easily be a way around heavily radiated areas. Sail past them to the south and east or south and west. Stay as close to the shore as you dare, but either way it seems very viable.

Gee, I wonder.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JV5HdN5EA8g

[CaptainPatch]

Thought I'd bring this thread back to include some map concepts.

It seems to me that even decades later -- eight to be exact -- there would be a wealth of Rand McNally roadmaps and Thomas Guides that showed in fairly detailed maps the way the world used to be laid out. That means that more than likely the party would be issued the Thomas Guide or Rand-MacNally Atlas of the area they are supposed to be exploring. Undoubtedly, the terrain would have changed, but things like towns tend to stay put... unless a nuke landed on it or nearby. For example, "According to the map, XYZtown used to be over the next hill. I suppose we'll what's left of it when we get there."

So, I see a probability of _three_ maps in play: A) The Thomas Guide equivalent that details roads, railroads, communities, publicly known military installations, etc., as of 1995. B) The _actual_ world map that becomes revealed as the fog of war is rolled back during your travels. That is, what you definitively KNOW of the world because you've seen it directly through the party's eyes. And C) rough sketch maps indicating places and locations that NPCs have told you about, or given you directions on where to find them.

As an example of the Thomas Guide map, here is a pretty decent example: http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~2159~200005:Rand-McNally-Junior-Road-Map-Califo

If you zoom in (use your mouse wheel), you can shift the map by clicking-and-dragging. You will find Quartz (Quartzite) at K-9, Needles at I/J-8/9, and Vegas at H8. I suspect that we will start our exploration by being dropped off in Pahrump, due West of Vegas at H-7. [Looking at the map I can see that Base Cochise would have been located in the Dixie National Forest. What a great place to hide a super-secret military installation!]

[clippedwolf]

Pretty much EVERYTHING on a line from El Cajon to Riverside _should_ be glow-in-the-dark because there are a string of military installations all along that line. Even near misses would suffice to create a "wall" of radioactive devastation.

It's been a long time. Most of the radiation would be gone at that point. However, there may be pockets so I wouldn't play around in the craters.

[Son of Max]

Well, while we're worshiping at Altar of Pedantic Realism, shouldn't we be whining about the concept of a prison holding only death row inmates?

Police State development during the run-up to war. Tends to fill up prisons, so to keep the size of prison populations manageable, death sentences become more common.

I just realized something: Given the numbers and the purity of sentences of the prisoners, these were most likely mostly political prisoners. Makes speculations a whole lot more interesting!

Actually, I figured the 'Drug Wars (1987-1993)' mentioned in the History of The Desert Rangers probably included, shall we say, 'stiff' new maximum penalties for narco taficking, manufacture of controlled substances and RICOs tied to narcotics.

I mean, if full scale 'kinetic military actions for the purpose of regime change' (implied in the history by the "right wing governments set up by the U.S.") were what the U.S. was doing in the late 80's/early 90's in the world of Wasteland, American nationals participating in narcotics traficking or crimes (murder, kidnapping, gunrunning) that were directly tied to the narcotics trade, would probably draw death sentences.

If narcotics are the casis beli for these military expeditions into Latin America, (and even if that's only PART of it) it's hard (if not impossible) to justify sending the military into other countries to engage in such policy, without a SERIOUS crackdown on domestic production, distribution and others associated with the cartels/narco regimes the U.S. is going into other countries to eliminate from a political standpoint.

So, not so much political prisoners, but I'm guessing, if the Drug Wars ended only 5 years prior to the war, there's still plenty of legit narco and narco related RICO beefs coming though the system during the years leading up to the war, especially with the appeals process, which probably made a super max prison just for death sentences necessary in the first place.

The Drug Wars are one of those things I'd like to see explained more fully either in the game or the novellas.

There's a lot of interesting developments that could have come out of such a thing.

Like the U.S. military figuring out (much like they have in the last decade with the WoT) that the 5.56mm NATO and 9mm NATO rounds are junk and need replacing, thus leading to bringing back the .45 ACP for service pistols and SMGs and even the development of a more powerful assault rifle cartridge.

Personally, under such conditions, I've come to favor an analog of the 7.62x40mm Wilson Tactical being adopted to replace the 5.56mm NATO as people were already making them as a wildcat (in our world) and it can be mass produced cheaply and easily with existing brass (it's a cut down 5.56mm NATO cartridge) and lead (same bullets as 7.62 NATO) both of which are in large supply, both in our world and the world of Wasteland.

But now I've gone a bit off topic.

[CaptainPatch]

Pretty much EVERYTHING on a line from El Cajon to Riverside _should_ be glow-in-the-dark because there are a string of military installations all along that line. Even near misses would suffice to create a "wall" of radioactive devastation.

It's been a long time. Most of the radiation would be gone at that point. However, there may be pockets so I wouldn't play around in the craters.

The half-life of Strontium-90 is 28.8 years. The concentration at Ground Zero is so intense that it takes at least five cycles to get the area anywhere close to the crater down to where you no longer have to wear a rad suit. Probably 5 cycles of half-lives = 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32 = 5 x 28.8 =144 years. Try going in without a rad suit before that, don't ever expect to have kids.

[Color Blotch]

Pretty much EVERYTHING on a line from El Cajon to Riverside _should_ be glow-in-the-dark because there are a string of military installations all along that line. Even near misses would suffice to create a "wall" of radioactive devastation.

It's been a long time. Most of the radiation would be gone at that point. However, there may be pockets so I wouldn't play around in the craters.

The half-life of Strontium-90 is 28.8 years. The concentration at Ground Zero is so intense that it takes at least five cycles to get the area anywhere close to the crater down to where you no longer have to wear a rad suit. Probably 5 cycles of half-lives = 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32 = 5 x 28.8 =144 years. Try going in without a rad suit before that, don't ever expect to have kids.

Fission products like Strontium-90 are for the most part propelled to stratosphere and distributed along very large area. Most of radioactive contamination around the site of explosion is caused by short lived secondary isotopes produced under ionizing emission and only lasts for some months.

For example there was a study by IAEA that was taken at Semipalatinsk Test Site (many hundreds tests, about hundred above the ground) a few years after collapse of Soviet Union. The absorbed dose rate in air inside the nuclear test site was measured as 0.1 µGy/h at 1km away from the center and 0.1–17 µGy/h inside 1 km radius, which is barely above natural background level of radiation.

[CaptainPatch]

So, what you are suggesting is that 80-90 years after all the world's nuclear power nations expended nearly their entire nuclear stockpiles, there would be next to nothing in the way of radioactive "hotspots" _anywhere_? [In which case the radioactive zones around Darwin Village, the Blood Cult temple in Needles, and the nuclear waste dump in Needles in WL were MASSIVELY exaggerated.]

[Color Blotch]

So, what you are suggesting is that 80-90 years after all the world's nuclear power nations expended nearly their entire nuclear stockpiles, there would be next to nothing in the way of radioactive "hotspots" _anywhere_? [In which case the radioactive zones around Darwin Village, the Blood Cult temple in Needles, and the nuclear waste dump in Needles in WL were MASSIVELY exaggerated.]

Pretty much, at least as far as normal nuclear weapons go. Destroyed nuclear power plants would probably be the main source of lasting radiation. Nuclear waste might also create long-term contamination if released into environment. Perhaps a dirty bomb could do that as well, although SU didn't make those. As for radiation in WL, I suppose it serves as a part of 80s vibe. It isn't the same without nuclear scare.

[CaptainPatch]

So then the question would be ,after a 2 Mt, 5 Mt, 10 Mt, or 20 Mt nuke detonates when would it be relatively safe for scavengers to creep back into the shattered cities and blasted military installations without fear of dying of radiation poisoning? This is a VERY relevant question as it would determine whether or not those locations had already been picked over, or if they are just now becoming safe to enter -- meaning lotsa loot to be had.

[Sxerks]

So then the question would be ,after a 2 Mt, 5 Mt, 10 Mt, or 20 Mt nuke detonates when would it be relatively safe for scavengers to creep back into the shattered cities and blasted military installations without fear of dying of radiation poisoning? This is a VERY relevant question as it would determine whether or not those locations had already been picked over, or if they are just now becoming safe to enter -- meaning lotsa loot to be had.

From a bomb it might be sooner than you think, the residual radiation could be near normal a week later, like after Hiroshima. It really depends where any fallout lands.

I recently watched a program about Chernobyl, and the fallout from that is still giving off radiation, but plants and animals are living somewhat normally in the area. But that is a reactor meltdown, not a bombing.

[CaptainPatch]

Got any kind of ballpark figure? Because all it takes is to be survivable in a rad suits for the the scavengers to start in on stripping lucrative loot sites. 10-20 years of scavengers pretty much guarantees that nothing of value remains. After that point, it takes an archaeological dig to extract anything that the scavengers may have missed.

[clippedwolf]

All the salvageable material is probably part of permanent and semi-permanent settlements then.

[Woolfe]

The Radiation hanging around is one area where I think the game may break from reality (altho the option of nuclear power plants is a good one).

I think we will still have some radiation hanging around and causing grief.