Socially Unacceptable

Creating fan funded projects with input and transparency is certainly a new experience for me, and I would not have it any other way. I think it is important to note that we still want to be creative and throw ideas out for debate, which is why I couch most of my details with caveats. What I have discovered is that there are some four-letter words with extra letters like “Social” which get very emotional responses. Social means casual to some people and Wasteland 2 is NOT a casual game. I will certainly be careful in my word selection as I want new ideas to be discussed without being railroaded for bad word choice. Also please keep in mind that we don’t start full production until the funding hits in about a month. Until then, the forums are helping us hone in on the most important tenets.

And to repeat… this is an old-school RPG and nothing is going to make us deviate from that experience but there could be some options to consider that make it more fun. In fact, the reason we are not doing multi-player is because it would have affected the narrative. Keep in mind that this game is pre funded, so I don’t have to use clever buzzwords to get attention or convince people to buy it. My thoughts on additions are pure in the sense of whether it would make it more fun to play. Period.

I clearly made a mistake in throwing out an idea before I communicated a cohesive vision document on the overall game. At two million in funding we will be doing the top things everyone wants anyway: a larger world and more content, more character dialog, more graphics across the board, and more audio. I should not have thrown out any fringe ideas this early on… but live and learn.

The mod-kit is a whole other beast which I have let people know we are considering, but it would not make launch as I want to keep our development focus on the content we plan to ship.

I do like sharing my experience with my friends when I play a game—be it conversation or leaderboards. I would be curious to see my friend’s stats when playing: how many kills he had, ammo used, his level and other various non-spoiling information. However, I think the best way to handle new concept is to put them out on the forum for people to discuss. We will also try to communicate the work required for any potential new ideas so people understand impact. We want to spend our energy on the parts that people will enjoy the most no matter what.

My statement is still true that I would rather make a smaller group ecstatic than worry about a bigger audience. All of you backers are the core group I care about the most, and I will continue to post and read from the forums to sync us up.

Help make this game 100% Fan-Funded, tell others:

114 thoughts on “Socially Unacceptable

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  3. I never played the original wasteland, but I donated to this because of other games, baulder’s gate fallout, etc.

    I don’t understand the issue of social features, like xbla…if you don’t like being online, don’t be! It is that easy.

    While I can understand you probably don’t want to link W2 to facebook or google+, I think some light player communication would be fine. Even just a chatroom in game where people can ask for help, and others can view stats or whatever to give pointers. As someone who hasn’t played a game this difficult in quite some time, I feel like this would be a really great addition to help newer people to the fold.

    • I double this opinion. Many modern postapocalyptic games lack hardcore settings, drama narratives and atmoshpere of hopelessness. All the things that make gameplay rewarding and intense.

  4. Poor Brian, I feel bad about the lashback you got, but I think I can understand how it happened. “Social” is unfortunately a corporate buzzword nowadays and it seems many people associate it with the bottom of the barrel facebook-games and the like. They really shouldn’t leap to that conclusion when it’s coming from Brian Fargo’s keyboard, but at this point, we gamers are sort of like a tired, jaded soul that’s been cheated and deceived one time too many. We’re returning to our long-lost lover, but we’ve forgotten how to trust. Teach us to how to love again, Brian!

    Haha, analogies aside, I interpreted the idea as similar to Demon’s/Dark Souls system, and I personally think it sounds cool. :)

    • Thank you Krishna sir,We really aptpeciare for your kind information regarding our beloved village. It has been always fantastic to hear news about our village in such a way,especially, in development sector. I am very much proud of you that you have been serving for our village for such a long prior of time.When I saw your face it remind me of my school age and all those stupid things that i used to do at that time. It just feels like yesterday, I feel young again like a boy. I do hope you also feel the same as me, don’t you sir? I have no doubt you have a huge connection with the school and village both emotionally and physically. I know you love the place same as any other villagers. Only one thing is different with compare to other is that you have been contributing with your highly respected qualification, dedication and honestly almost whole of your life.My heartfelt thanks to you for your hard work and showing such an enthusiasm towards our village and as well as school.We are very lucky to have such a generous teacher and proud of you.Your sincerelyEx student Arjun badmas danda ghar.PS it would be better if you could publish your e mail add so we can contact you personally in future.

  5. Keep doing what you’re doing — your game will be awesome.

    HOWEVER Fallout never shied away from (properly subtle) pop-culture references! How about you let us stumble across a little out-of-the-way place called “Farmvale” in the game, the slack-jawed, listless residents ever tending to their withering crops and unenthusiastically hounding us to become their neighbors. And then how about letting us salt their crops, burn their barns, and lay waste to the whole place!

      • That would be awesome! Please put this in the game! Not only it is in the spirit of Fallout it’s also pretty darn funny haha

    • Hi folks, it’s a small thing, but i thought i would share.I was at Costco in the mildde of the day, with time to spare. How rare!I noticed that the two folks behind me were each holding a single item. Well, no problem. I asked each of them if they would like to go ahead of me, and what do you know they did!Since the checkout crew at Costco are a well-oiled team, it only took an extra 3 minutes out of my day, and made those customers pretty happy.Pay It Forward!

  6. The game of this size MUST NOT be casual…In my opinion, if it’s a old-school game, it will be “hardcore”. If it “hardcore”, it is for fan of hard games. And hard games, in their most, not casual at all. Because you can not spend little time to walktrough in such games, you must spend a lot of it to beat something (like a hard enemy or something like long quest).
    I think modern players will not understand how to play this game and ect., but it is not important. The fans completely proven that they are many and if no one will not play this game, they will! But i hope someone even from modern generation will like it and start to play it…Because not everyone is chasing only for graphics, some look a lot deeper.

    And i had never ask one question before this time. What is engine in the project used? Not that I’m very interested in this, but just curious…

  7. @Brian Fargo: You stepped on the Buzzword-Mine and it exploded big time.

    People are not only thinking “Casual” when they hear social.

    Though there are Casual-Games and there are Social-Casual-Games.

    People think probably about Zynga, Facebook & Co.

    —-
    On a unrelated Note: Absolute Statistics Collection would be cool. Though I guess the RNG would have to be compensated for.

  8. Funny isn’t it how fast we go from an online “civil” society to a rabid mob trying to grind to dust a free floating idea. So much for the Internet’s promise to enlighten us all eh. Just ignore the mass hysteria and innovate away i’d say. Your 30 years worth of experience and accomplishments are enough for me to know you’ll select the right technologies and features for WL2 to become a successful game that’ll set a new (read modern) standard. You know, you should make a funny video of this situation, maybe one where you are being chased by a mob of gamers/nerds throwing their controllers and dvds at you for uttering the word social.

      • On October 3, thirty high soohcl students from Mount Si’s Key Club visited the homes of two elderly folks in North Bend. Armed with gloves, garden tools, and determination ..they set out to offer assistance to these homeowners where the labor had simply become too big an obstacle. The students split and stacked firewood, trimmed overgrown bushes and hedges, brought garden beds back to objects of beauty, raked leaves, and filled an enormous trailer with discarded and rotting lumber that was taken to the dump. The best part of this endeavor was the smiles and hugs given by the homeowners to these high soohcl Key Clubbers. That so many showed up at their homes to Pay it Forward was overwhelming and one of the most heart-warming experiences I have seen. Way to go Mount Si Key Club!

  9. Please. No interaction with other players.

    If it is something that you DO end up including anyway, please make it completely optional to the point that you can make it absolutely INVISIBLE to the player if the player wants nothing to do with other players.

    Thank you.

  10. So, any chance we’ll see this clear vision document by the end of the week? Might really help the kickstarter process and get us all on the same page when considering ideas like this.

  11. Brian, i trust you , do what you think its good for the game and i’ll be happy.
    i want to support your work , not doing it.
    sorry for my english…

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  13. Update the kickstarter 2 million goal to remove references to social – or at least change update 6 to say what it says here about the 2 million mark. I’m not sure, but I think having social left in the 2 million goal on kickstarter is killing pledges.

    At 2 million better effects, more time spent on art direction, talking heads, more dialogue, greater depth in game mechanics, more visual PC and NPC customisations (you know we love customisations, right?) all blast social off the agenda!!

  14. Here’s an idea for you:

    Please add a Cooperative multiplayer, I personally would just love to sit and play with few friends (like a group of 5) each taking different role and playing through a game like this. Today’s games are stripped of this, you either play sole or versus. Co-op Multi is a way to go.

    I know there are issues like decisions in dialogues but I bet you can come up with some clever solutions.

    It’s so early it can be designed in a way it works.

    Anybody else would love to see Co-op? Make a sound, be heard.

    • Please go somewhere else. This game is going to be single player only. Which is the way we want it. Adding mutliplayer will in fact reduce interest from the old school crowd this game is aimed at, and would violate the promise Brian made to us about what the game will be.

      No multiplayer ever.

      • There is nothing wrong with cooperative multiplayer in story-based games.

        See some classics such as IWD2 and Diablo. Having multiple players can change the dynamic of combat without hurting the game, ESPECIALLY in game that are already party-based like Wasteland.

    • Single player = Coop mode, there are challenges I admit, it’s just an option for people who want to enjoy the game with friends.

      @ah I don’t play WoW anymore, it’s simple hack’n'slash game and it’s boring.

      @cryocore @Perkk I get you, I really do. But have you ever played Baldur’s Gate coop? with friends?
      I backed this project because I played Wasteland when I was 15 and I loved it then. I think today’s games lack that special something that was in games back then, and Brian promises to at least try to deliver what was lost. But still please take a look at games, one of the missing aspects of current games is the Coop mode, and if it is included it’s shallow. So all I’m saying sleep on it, think about it.

    • Baldur’s Gate way might actually work, since you can’t miss dialogs. Of course, you would have to choose carefully whom to invite into your game.

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  16. I’m not particularly excited about the social features, but I believe they could be done well and would add to the game. I trust the WL2 team not to compromise on the important parts of this concept. The way I imagine it is sort of like Nethack “bones file” data hosted on a public server. As you play WL2, you might very occasionally run across the remains of other players’ parties, or cryptic half-worn notes scrawled into the ground. In addition, perhaps you could send “postcard” like items to friends to indicate that you’ve reached a certain location. Features like this would have no impact on the gameplay, but might add a little to make the world seem a bit more dynamic. Think achievements and Steam-like community features, but a little more tied into the game world to help improve immersion. I get the backlash, but I rally don’t think it’s a big deal either way.

    • Great blog here! Also your site lots up very fast! What host are you using? Can I get your affiliate link in your host? I driese my web site loaded up as fast as yours lol

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  18. The thing that bothers me about ‘social’ elements is that they have a deep conflict with the nature of a ‘single-player’ game. To me, a single-player game experience is similar to reading a book. It’s something I want to immerse myself in completely, leaving the external world behind. Adding ‘social elements’ to a single-player game would be like adding them to a book. When I’m trying to read a book I want to experience the story the book is trying to tell; I don’t want to be distracted by notifications that my friends are currently reading the same book or tidbits about what they thought of various passages that I’m now reading for the first time. If I wanted to be communicating with my friends I have plenty of ways to do that. If I’m reading a book (or playing a single-player game) it’s in part because I *do not want to be communicating with my friends at that time*.

    I may want to share or discuss my reading experience *once I’ve finished it*. But I want a rigorous separation between that and the actual process of reading the book — or, by analogy, playing the game.

    • I agree.

      I would even go a bit further and add that having other people’s stats and accomplishments present might intimidate a certain type of player or even discourage them from continuing onwards (“Oh, he was already level 21 and had way more quests than I did. :( “).

      But on the other hand it might be a nice feature for the majority of people (since we are in the sharing/facebook age now).

      But thankfully there is an easy solution to this – add a check box where you can chose whether you want to compare your progress with your friends or not. That shouldn’t be hard to program at all (just an if-clause here and there). :)

      • When I play single player games I want to be totally isolated from other players, here’s why:

        I’m not a very good player when compared to many other hard-corish gamers. My RPG characters usually aren’t that well developed, because I’m more interested in roleplaying and getting all the fun skills than being an expert in one or two. So as a result, I sometimes struggle in combat, fail dialogue checks etc.

        However, since Fallout or Mass Effect 1 or 2 don’t constantly remind me of how shitty I am, I’m allowed to slip into the role of the heroic defender of the galaxy or the unstoppable villain. For me this is the best thing about RPGs, being something I can’t be in real life.

        A good example is Mass Effect. In the first two Mass Effect games I got to be the total badass, but in ME3, because of the implemented (and kind of mandatory) multiplayer I had to get online and see just how comparatively useless I am at the game.That low feeling stayed with me throughout the rest of the playthrough. My Shepard was no longer the last, best hope for the galaxy…. the galaxy has plenty to choose from and could’ve done better.

        I remember talking to my friends about our Fallout2 playthroughs, about all the quests and the big guns i missed and the apparent importance of getting energy weapons (i like bullets) and I realized i’m not that good at Fallout2. But by then the game was over, and I’d had my fun. And thoughout the game I’d had this image of myself (my character) as a certain type of person with certain capabilities (and a bad habit of murdering traders) and it never occurred to me to try to rank myself with other players. This is how single player RPGs should be, I think, sandboxes for your imagination, walled off from reality.

    • Exactly as I see it. Sometimes just getting wrapped up by yourself in a game is what you want. I dont want or need the distractions from the outside world.

  19. This “social” idea is bad and implementing it would require not quite few monye. Why?

    It would require implementing an internet connection, network protocols, implementing security, implementing fail-safe solutions, may introduce unbalance in the game and make it too easy for some. Plus will require money to be spend on spotting the bugs and possible exploits on all that areas.

    And … we don’t want another game that would require internet connection to be played. Period.

  20. I think there is nothing wrong in adding more ideas. Maybe that helps to build a brand new genre of game. One which can be played be the one who love the old RPG and one which can get new people into it. I´m a backer and I think having a kind of “Postoffice” where I can send some stuff to my fiends might be “cool”. But then if that would be possible some people might “hack” that system to get some e.g. cool items like happened in Warcraft.

    So what about a kind of “x bay” in the game? I need money … but have a lot of ammo to sell… I think there is no problem with that kind of construct. I can sell it to my friends or offer it on a marketplace. In the past, then I played Fallout 2, I had a loot of cool items which I left in the desert, because my character couldn´t carry it. So why not collecting it and then selling it on the “Game Marketplace”? If I didn´t wish to use it … ok … but I could if I wish ;-) .

  21. I have one want and one want only.

    That your vision for the game comes through, and if your vision was to listen to the kinds of fans who react with such vitriol at the mere mention of anything from post 1992, then I support that.

    I suspect it’s not however (presumptuous of me, I know) and I implore you, listen to the fans. But don’t let the crazier more vocal ones dictate what you should and shouldn’t do with your own game, especially with an innocuous optional feature that won’t impact those who don’t wish to use it.

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  23. Hi Brian,

    I just want to say that I for one DO want you and the inXile team to continue to innovate and do what we are giving pledging our money to make you able to do: make the best Wasteland 2 possible!

    Yes, old cRPGs from the 90s are great, but gaming has come a long way since then. And even given the dumbing down and consolization we have seen, there are still good ideas in the mix. Old school to me does NOT mean feature-locked in 1992. For one thing, a lot of things are possible technologically now that weren’t back then. A probably not-applicable example being the routine-generated narration in a game like Bastion (completely different genre, I know, its just an example of something that was impossible a handful of years ago AFAIK).

    So yes, please do think outside the box! I trust you to know what will enhance the old-school gaming experience and what will ruin it.

  24. If social aspect will not inbalance game and will not be obligatory I DON’t care.
    Also I don’t think many people want it, it’s not zynga game

  25. In RPG games the important part is the character, NOT the player. From within the game I don’t want to be aware of other players. If you really want to, you could put stats, chats, forums, blackjack&hookers inside the player’s account page.

  26. I believe two points needed to be addressed to get real sense of what community wants.
    1) What is the estimated cost of these features, 10k, 50k, 100k or more?
    2) What in general sense are these features, will they affect gameplay in way which forces their use or affect power-balance?

    Just my 2 euro-cents.

    • I got home from work yesterday afonoetrn and mowed the lawn and blew leaves before the rain came today. After I mowed my lawn, I went next door to my neighbors house and mowed his lawn and blew the leaves off his property. I slipped a pay it forward card under his door mat when I was finished. He came over and thanked me for what I’d done, and also asked me about pay it forward. I often do things for other people, but yesterday it felt a little different because it gave me the opportunity to tell him about paying it forward; also in hopes that it would have a chain reaction and many lives would be effected by such a positive and simple notion of paying it forward .

  27. I have question:
    Will you make documentary or any videos about developing process?

    also why the hell you will not make update video with interviews with people who will work on the project , with concept images or anything. It will have more impact on donations than just text. Also such vids could be posted on gametrailers or any other video sites. You could make also some official trailer, because we know that game will be made, it wil bring new people to Kickstarter and will be much more interesting BECAUSE finally we will get some information about game itself!

    btw I am fallout fan and believe in you guys but stop shoot in your foot and make vid on the topic people are most interested :)

  28. Please do not let this become a precedent. The fans should not be designing the game. Please do not let us stifle creativity which would be the same as having a publisher. While I agree this feature was fringe and I agree with your decision, I know this game is as every much yours as ours.

  29. I think the problem occured when you have 1,5 million dollars in your pocket, you said if you have 500.000 more you’re going to spend on social aspects of the game. So the general perception in the average reader like this: They are going to spend %25 of their budget to social thing. And there goes the problem.

    As I have said in Kickstarter and RPGWatch forums this social aspects are meaningless and waste of money. Money should be spend on enriching the game world, by extra NPCs, quests, choice&consequences. The world must be as much responsive to our actions as possible. So more interaction in the game, not outside the game.

    This game must be old school as possible. Because it’s not only a game, it’s a mutiny to the overall workings of game industry. Our last chance to say hey old school wasn’t dead. If it’s successful it can open a new era for us.

    • You know anyone can say anything is meaningless and waste of money that doesn’t make it the truth keep that in mind.

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  31. when people get emotional about “social” i think the emotions are rather connected to the developer losing the focus, than on “casual” like the developer wasting precious funds on stuff to please publishers. in their core people who fund this project want an antisocial experience, they want to lock up and get lost in their own fantasies. the social part of classical rpgs is to share the experience AFTER you have played the game. stats or similar stuff wont tell you the story as a real life friend will do.
    when people talk about classical rpgs they talk about “immersion”, to use a modern term. immersion in classical rpgs means emotions, depth and surprising intelligence of story or ai behaviour. this and a proper interface is where all the money should go to. more depth to npcs, more dialogue, more content. it was the primal wish of the community and i have no doubt its the deepest.
    dont lose the focus on what is really important, its the wrong path to walk on modern grounds with wastelands 2. if you stick to all that has already been in classical rpgs and try to deepen the good things, i think thats the right way for wasteland 2.

  32. Hopefully the negative feedback to this minor feature hasn’t hindered your enthusiasm for the game!

    Looking forward to seeing the vision document.

  33. Hi there, mr. Fargo, inXile team,

    Generally im with people that understood exactly what you suggested as an idea, but dont see any point in it.
    I like that you spoke openly about it.
    You were very upfront and honest about everything so far and thats one of the things i respond to most positively.

    But instead of repeating what they said, ill use this to bring up an issue that just arises from this general kickstarting idea.

    You say that some ideas like this one will be offered to the wasteland2 forum members for a vote.
    Of course, primarily, it would make sense if only the people who put in money and funded this project get the vote… not just anyone. And forums are so far free for all.

    That doesnt mean i think there are numerous members there that dont want the game as you proposed it in its core.
    But, it is simply not acceptable that people who didnt give any money vote on the money belonging to other people.

    Secondly, issues like these about features that basically dont have anything with the core design, most of us support, should not come after the kickstart deadline, but before it – it would only be fair for everyone.

    Clarifying this and saying how much of an impact these fan votes will have on the eventual design, and how this vote will be “calculated” in sense of amount of money given by each backer need to be clarified in time.
    Is a vote of a person who gave 1 dollar the same as those that gave much more?

    Its not about mistrust at all, its simply an issue that needs to be clarified.
    As this project have been clear so far.

    That and a nice clear vision document will do us all a lot of good.

    btw, Im not expecting the team to change their core design or specific features at all, based on fan votes. It can be done, ive seen it done. For quite some time i was a member of community surrounding a post apoc RPG of very old school design where devs regularly interacted with and asked for input ideas and suggestions from members but had no problem whatsoever in saying NO where necessary.
    I fully expect inXile to behave in that way.

    • I think Mr. Fargo can and will say “No” to anything that is clearly against his vision of the game, even if Fans demand stuff.
      But i am opposed to the idea, that you can “buy” polls. I think, everybody deserves to be heard in this process. This means also, i don’t want to restrict the input to backers. Everybody who wants to propose ideas should be able to do so. This is not a timocracy. otherwise you could really miss out on some great ideas, just because those people didn’t pay. But maybe they will buy the game when it’s out. The goal of WL2 is not only to be made, but also to be sold afterwards.
      And finally, i think there are not sooo many people that participate in the forums, that did not back the project. I have the feeling that everybody who wants this thing to be made and that it is worth sepnding the time in the forums most propably also backed it with some of his money.

      • I didnt ask you anything and your wild guesses do not interest me at all.
        Same goes for your opinions.

        Kindly mind your own business. Your input here was not wanted, asked for or relevant or taken into any consideration.

        Its rather clear who i asked.

      • Hiver, it’s a public forum–if you don’t like people responding to your questions, you are free to ignore them!

        Anyway, I hope and believe that the team’s “zeroth” priority will be to make what they believe to be a good game, and the next priority will be to make the game their fans want. I backed the project because I support the creative vision Brian Fargo et al. have, not because I wanted a mishmash game designed to appeal to the mob. A good game, like any big project, needs a clear vision to succeed–you can’t get that with a hundred decision makers. Fans can have input, whether backer or not, and it’s great that the team will listen to them and use their input to aid in designing the game; but the point of this exercise was to free these guys to make the game they want to make for their fans, not to replace the dictates of the publisher by the dictates of a forum.

  34. I think we should believe in Brian. If not he, then who? If not now, then when? We all want classic rpg. This is our only chance to get it.

  35. Thank you for the update.
    I would like to say i have read update 6 careffully and i know your idea is absolutely not a facebook/twitter integration. I have read the 2 exemples you gave and make my homework by looking at Demon/Dark Souls system.
    So if i dislike this idea, it’s not an allergic reaction like some try to insinuate.
    It’s because i expect Wasteland 2 to be a single player game, the pinacle of all the best old school cRPG games modernized but only focused on he SP experience and immersion.
    Demon/Dark Souls have good ideas. I would enjoy to play an innovative new kind of RPG exploring these concepts. But in my humble opinion it’s inapropriate for wasteland 2 and not what i’m expecting for an old school game.
    And for those of us who fear that every details would lead to the same “clash”, i would say not to worry. This “issue” was problematic because it concerned the root of the project, Everyone is well aware that W2 will not be exactly what he wants, Some prefer 2D, other 3D graphics, some want more or less complex TB combat, ect….but in the end those “details” don’t matter much because they don’t endanger what wastealand 2 should be.
    Cheers !

    • My wife and I have been very blessed in our lives. We have also lived tuhorgh very tight times ( I. E., blood donations.) We have always felt the love if others. Many times, we picked up the bill for another at a resturant. Other times we paid for another’s groceries. Another time we put together a baby shower for a lady we never met who left an abusive home. Instead of money, we gave a man in the rain a sleeping bag, a coat, and accessories along with a gift card for a meal at Denny’s. When my wife ad I ran into financial issues, we were blessed by people who remained anonymous with a $500 gift card twice. We always asked why. We had a very hard time accepting. Why us? LovePay it forward It will come back when needed

  36. Building up social features and mantain them is a big cost and has small to none return just few months after the launch as people pass onto other games.

    I think that this article sums up this problem quite well, and in the second page it talks about Demon’s Souls too, whose servers are now offline.
    http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9497-Online-Gaming-Blues

    Overall I strongly agree with all the points summarized by Goral.
    I don’t want any social element at all.

  37. If you want examples of the limits of community feedback you need not look any further than to MMO communities. MMOs change a lot and change fast wich means their forums quickly degenerate into a place where the whiners and trolls have their voice and a place the constructive feedback people avoid.

    Unfortunately the moral compass of each individual nowadays are on an individual level wich means that what different people see as resonable behaviour differs as much. Wich is pretty tragic.

    So for Brian, Listen to advice, but decide for yourself. Its your vision. Dont let shortsighted people derail your train of thought.

  38. I don’t need to know how many monsters my friend killed, or how accurate with a sniper rifle Pablo from Spain is… I just don’t care. Statistical goals like those are for First Person Shooters; for RPGs they create a focus on powerplayers who steamroll through an adventure, skip the dialogue and claim it was boring and not hard enough.

    I’m genuinely intrigued to see the game work in some online/social system. But instead of combat stats I’d rather see that my friend was 47% sociopath, or 86% altruistic. Here’s one for the venerable gamers of old. Does anyone remember an old advertisement for Elite (C64) that had four people, one of them labelled harmless, one unskilled, one dangerous and a picture granny who was Elite? The point was you didn’t know who was really dangerous in Elite’s universe. I’d love something similiar for Wasteland 2, a more descriptive ranking that gave an indication of a style of gameplay. ie Explorer, Mercenary, Scavenger, Cold-blooded Killer.

  39. As a fellow producer and artist I have to say its really great having community input on one level, however some things should just be sacred to the development cycle.

    In other words, if you want to produce these things into the game it’s entirely your choice and no matter what I’ll respect what you make for it. You have already satiated the appetite of the most hardcore fan following by promising “a return to roots” ethos, so there is no more which has to be said honestly, you just now have to make it!

    You have to remember that when you created Wasteland or when Tim Cain did Fallout, no one had such pre-preparation via community or mass feedback. You guys just “did it” because it was your vision. There will always be split divide on people loving and hating aspects, however after years not being able to create what you really wanted in the video games industry, I think its time you put everything into this that YOU want.

    I think, this way, no matter what happens (For better or worse like Tim Schafer said), the fans will respect you no matter what!

  40. One of the things I don’t like so much about modern games is achievements and the social aspect about them, simply because they are a distraction from the experience. If I start getting pop-ups about my friends are doing so and so, it will kill the immersion and pull me out of a hopefully deeply engrossing experience.

    I can definitely see a charm that you are able to sort of send little things to each other to help make the overall gameworld feel more alive and dynamic I guess. I just hope we won’t be riddled with pop-ups, notifactions and other stuff that helps break down the 4th wall. And I definitely don’t need to know that my friend completed the achievement where you need to take 10 steps, or that he killed his first enemy or something redundant like that.

  41. The problem with social things is not it’s casual (demon’s souls is really an hardcore game) but it’s unadapted at the universe.
    If by social you think at sharing stats why not (but it’s useless imo), if it’s demon’s souls like I’m against, I love demon’s souls but the entire game is based on social connection and it’s incompatible with a post-apocalyptic game.

  42. Pingback: Wasteland 2 isn’t a casual game claims Fargo « GamingBolt.com: Video Game News, Reviews, Previews and Blog

  43. I recommend reading the responses at the official forum about the social matter (and mod-kit which strangely some people consider as one of the most immportant things in the game O_O): http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=900

    To sum up, most people that are registered on the forum are STRONGLY AGAINST the social feature because:
    1) There are far more important things than this (even polishing the game) and spending (any) money on such feature in a game seems like a waste in a SINGLE PLAYER game strongly driven by the story and characters which gamer gets to know little by little. Any outside interference destroys this.
    2) The same thing could be done by minimizing the game and using FB/Twiiter/IRC/Forum or some other means and not spoil the experience/immersion, etc. Maybe game developers look at the games (especially the ones they’ve created) different than average players and they already are spoiled hence you’ve liked that idea.
    3) Even if it would be optional it would mean some people are spoiled and it would break the balance by making the game harder for people who wouldn’t use it and dumbing down the overall product and we don’t want this game to become easier even if someone wants to. This game is intended for old-school gamers who know how to use their brain and don’t need tips from others (not to mention whole walkthrough or items)
    4) Wasteland 2 was supposed to show that old-school games can still sell well but with feature like this other developers will say “well, it’s no wonder since you’ve added such modern feature – clearly old school game can’t sell well on it’s own merits it needs Facebook/Twitter integratation”.
    5) No one asked for such feature and yet we could read “At 2 million we will increase the staff to make the game more social so that it can become a more shared experience.” Really, you would spend money for THIS?
    6) Social interaction shouldn’t mean no-lifes/losers/geeks talking with other no-lifes/losers/geeks but discussing the game at a beer with friends who like it. I don’t see how a complete stranger (and yes, most FB “friends” are also strangers) would like to say something constructive (and not spoiling or tipping me off) or important. Possibly many comments would look like “you faggot, ha ha ha” or “suck my…” or “at the XYZ location you will find super weapon” and it would either be trolling or a spoiling tip or maybe “hey, I’m going to the cinema at 5 PM” (yeah, OK, what do I care, it totally breaks the immersion and takes me out of the game world). Seriously, what’s the point?
    7) People are afraid what this (relatively) small feature might start and that it will begin a damaging trend. In other words it’s slippery slope from the moment it goes into game and next thing we know old-school gamers will be in minority and kiddies at the front

    There are other things but these are the ones I remember clearly. For more check out the forums.

    Anyway, thank you for this update.

    • Thank you sir ! I am delighted to read the Information about our shocol and Ghandruk. I hope that you will give further general information.My heartfelt thanks to you for your hard work towards our village and as well as shocol. yours faithfully former student:Ram Bahadur Gurung/2046 From. ENGLAND READING

  44. When I first started playing CRPGS, they were “social” in that I was almost always playing them while my brother or a friend hung out and watched and offered advice and chatted, or I was the one watching. Now, as an adult, most of my gamer friends live in different cities than me, and, although some do live nearby, it’s ridiculously difficult to coordinate our schedules when we do want to play games together. When we get together, even if it’s not to play games, we always talk about what games we’re playing (and other things too, I’m not completely obsessed). I guess, what I’m trying to say is that I hope that the social aspects that Brian’s been talking about can be incorporated, and can in some sense recapture the feeling of having my friends be part of my game without being part of my game that, for me at least, was so important when playing oldschool games as a kid and young adult.

  45. I recommend reading the responses at the official forum about the social matter (and mod-kit which strangely some people consider as one of the most immportant things in the game O_O): http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=900

    To sum up, most people that are registered on the forum are STRONGLY AGAINST the social feature because:
    1) There are far more important things than this (even polishing the game) and spending (any) money on such feature in a game seems like a waste in a SINGLE PLAYER game strongly driven by the story and characters which gamer gets to know little by little. Any outside interference destroys this.
    2) The same thing could be done by minimizing the game and using FB/Twiiter/IRC/Forum or some other means and not spoil the experience/immersion, etc. Maybe game developers look at the games (especially the ones they’ve created) different than average players and they already are spoiled hence you’ve liked that idea.
    3) Even if it would be optional it would mean some people are spoiled and it would break the balance by making the game harder for people who wouldn’t use it and dumbing down the overall product and we don’t want this game to become easier even if someone wants to. This game is intended for old-school gamers who know how to use their brain and don’t need tips from others (not to mention whole walkthrough or items)
    4) Wasteland 2 was supposed to show that old-school games can still sell well but with feature like this other developers will say “well, it’s no wonder since you’ve added such modern feature – clearly old school game can’t sell well on it’s own merits it needs Facebook/Twitter integratation”.
    5) No one asked for such feature and yet we could read “At 2 million we will increase the staff to make the game more social so that it can become a more shared experience.” Really, you would spend money for THIS?
    6) Social interaction shouldn’t mean no-lifes/losers/geeks talking with other no-lifes/losers/geeks but discussing the game at a beer with friends who like it. I don’t see how a complete stranger (and yes, most FB “friends” are also strangers) would like to say something constructive (and not spoiling or tipping me off) or important. Possibly many comments would look like “you faggot, ha ha ha” or “suck my…” or “at the XYZ location you will find super weapon” and it would either be trolling or a spoiling tip or maybe “hey, I’m going to the cinema at 5 PM” (yeah, OK, what do I care, it totally breaks the immersion and takes me out of the game world). Seriously, what’s the point?
    7) People are afraid what this (relatively) small feature might start and that it will begin a damaging trend. In other words it’s slippery slope from the moment it goes into game and next thing we know old-school gamers will be in minority and kiddies at the front

    There are other things but these are the ones I remember clearly. For more check out the forums.

    Anyway, thank you for this update.

  46. Pingback: Fargo: Wasteland 2 won’t have casual social features | Gaming RSS

  47. Brian:

    I think it’s important for you to realize that some of us understood exactly what you meant and still reacted negatively. I’ve played Mass Effect on Xbox Live; I’ve played Demon Souls. I simply don’t want any of that in WL2, and I think you might be surprised at how many people feel the same. If I feel the need to ‘get social’ about my gaming, I’ll jump on a forum or, you know, talk to them! I don’t need extra tools within the game to do that, and there are literally hundreds of game elements I’d rather your people were adding or enhancing that messing about with this nonsense.

    So, no, I wasn’t misled. I knew exactly what you meant in your original post – I”m simply against it. I’m also not a prima donna, and the inclusion of these elements won’t make a different in the level of my pledge or my excitement about WL2. But I, personally, think WL2 would be a better game if the social stuff got left out.

  48. Thank for update Brian, it’s what I want to get last two days.
    I understand its new way of game development and communication with fans, so it’s admissible mistake.
    But please don’t split community into two sides.
    Try to give some outputs before people start blame each other.

    And give us “strong” vision of game with some limits before discuss any special features.

    • Small repost about mods support…

      You don’t need to spend lot of money on some “easy” modding tools.
      Instead of it you need to release all your internal tools and documentation.
      I understand there might be some problems with licensing, but I sure you might find out.
      Its easier than creating something special for modding.

      Most of people who want make mods is smart people.
      Some of us even do reverse engineering of old game engines and formats.
      I think we can manage how to use internal developer tools.

      As well it can be very useful if you release some game-only source code even under proprietary license. E.g binary engine + game source.
      I sure its shouldn’t be too hard to make something like that, but its give great benefits for modding.

      My complete list of modding related ideas can be found here:
      http://wasteland.inxile-entertainment.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=291

  49. Yeah, I think you should drop the “social” features and instead add “network-enhanced persistent world” instead. Cut the knee-jerkers off at, well, the knees.

    Personally, I’m looking forward to that sort of thing – stumbling across the bodies of some other player’s character where he’d died, and looting his body for his ammo and new boots, or cryptic message left in blood on a wall by another player – which could either be warning or trap. After all, if I walk into a trap and get killed, my body could spawn in their game, and they’d have my bullets and boots.

    • “…my body could spawn in their game, and they’d have my bullets and boots.”

      This is a really cool idea…

      • Agreed. I enjoyed the way Demon/Dark Souls allowed players to leave notes, or see the last moments of their life. I really don’t think it would detract from the ‘hardcore’ness of this game were something similar added.

      • I actually really like this idea, as long as what you find on a player’s body is somewhat restricted. His boots, and a magazine or two of ammo, great. His Red Ryder rifle or key game items, no. The assumption could be that his body has already been looted, and you’re just finding minor things the looters missed.

    • I can’t imagine how this could ever work without breaking immersion. Who would want to see corpses named player1 or having notes that are obviously written by a player, not a character? Also, what would they look like? E.g. I don’t want to find someone dressed in power armor when I just step outside the ranger center for the first time. Nor I want to see any fresh bodies inside hidden and locked places, which supposedy have not been visited since the war.

  50. Apologies if this sounds fanboyish, but here goes…

    I’ll admit it, I never played Wasteland, and didn’t hear of it or Brian Fargo until a couple of years ago, but I donated as soon as I found out. I’m here because of Fallout, Planescape Torment, Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, Freespace, the list goes on. I’m not expecting or even wishing for a game similar to those mentioned, only similar in spirit. Brian saw the potentials in the developers that made those games happen.

    I’m utterly convinced that the best games are those that their designers would themselves enjoy playing, and it seems that Mr Fargo has a great taste when it comes to games… It just isn’t possible to delegate every single decision to either fans or publishers, perhaps one reason why new games tend to degenerate into easily tabulated lists of >X number of quests, >Y hours of voiceover etc. How do you quantify humor, subtlety, tactical depth, atmosphere, sense of exploration? At least this way SOME will enjoy the game instead of it being a bland experience for everyone, and hopefully this type of game will gain a few more fans that aren’t adverse to try something new, hell, Wasteland will be new to me.

  51. Thanks for the clarification and your continued focus on making this a game that captures the classic spirit and tone of the great early RPG’s (particularly Wasteland, naturally.)

    We back you because you’ve demonstrated what you and your teams can do, and we share your feelings regarding the state of the current mainstream gaming industry. You’ve earned our trust. Certainly there have been some ripples from the so-called social aspects you alluded to, but I think most of those complaining have simply forgotten your stated commitment to – first and foremost – create a classic style RPG.

    While it’s great that you’re making efforts to solicit input and make everyone 100% pleased with the final product, please remember that at times it does take a steady hand to keep the ship on course. Stay true to your vision, but don’t allow a few strained voices to interfere where innovation leads to a genuinely enhanced gaming experience.

    Probably don’t need to say any of the previous, this is hardly your first project. :) So – thank you for everything, including the incredible patience needed to complete a project like this, and for not forgetting the gamers who grew up in your time (like myself.) Godspeed, and all the best on this and all other projects!

  52. Just keep yer vision in yer own head clear.The rest will follow.Knock this thing out of the park,into the field,and then chase it down,throw it back(or kick it if you prefer)and keep on going.Everyone here I believe ultimately knows yer not gonna Facebook this thing(whatever the hell they say)
    Just do what you do best.Thanks for not being a sellout.

  53. Glad to hear your sticking to your original vision. Keep this as old-school as possible for us cranky old cRPGers :) I think many of reacted as we did because we have been burned so many times before. I have to say I don’t like “sharing’ while I’m PLAYING a game, afterwards on message boards, etc. is fine but NOT whiling playing. To me it just “takes me out” of the gameworld and I want to get lost in your new Wasteland world :)

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  55. I figured you would get some backlash over that. I had reservations myself when I read it. Then I thought more about the idea, and I think it could work, but it would be tricky. I was picturing something like the gifting system in the Forza series.

  56. I find it kind of sad that this kind of clarification is actually necessary and it’s not possible to just throw some ideas out there to get reasonable feedback from people.
    I checked out quite a few interviews you made and I have to say pretty much everything I read gives me hope that this is gonna become a great game for RPG loving people.
    In no way shape or form sounded this “social” aspect idea ever like it’s gonna reduce the quality or scope of the game, like it would be “casual” or be anything else than optional, so I really don’t understand the backlash this produced. But this is just another point demonstrating that basic fan feedback is a good thing but in the end the design decision should still come down to what the creators think is best for their game.

    • I agree with you Wolf. Put many people spun out of control and then took a perfectly harmless suggestion and clocked out. I would love and open forum for ideas and brainstorming without folks covering their ears and stomping around like two year olds. But it is what it is. I just hope Brian realizes that just cuz some folks yell alot does not make them the voice for all … it happens all to often that squeaky wheels get the grease ….

      • I would love an open forum for ideas and brainstorming without folks covering their ears and stomping around like two year olds whenever someone disagrees with an idea like you brats are doing. People don’t want this features, they said they didn’t and you all pitched a fit about them pitching a fit.

      • Note from fifth grade teacher whose sttendus are participating in the Kiwanis essay contest: We have really enjoyed working on this project. It has sparked quite a bit of thinking about the sttendus own acts of kindness and they want to begin a “Kindness Club” here at school. I’m very proud of their ambition. Our class is writing essays on kindness as part of the Kiwanis essay contest. We have really enjoyed working on this project. It has sparked quite a bit of thinking about the sttendus own acts of kindness and they want to begin a “Kindness Club” here at school. I’m very proud of their ambition.

    • A fan crowd is really hard to please and fast to rebell. This uproar reminded me very much of Project Zomboid, where the developers were very open about their progress and had a large group of fans. And many fans turned on them as soon as the developers didn’t met their realease goal (saying the next update would come in the next few days and then it took them way longer than that). There was much hatred from the fans and disapointed devs that wanted to be close to the fans.
      And to see, how fast this happened in the production of WL2 and that Brian Fargo already had to do a statement about his visions is kinda sad.
      I had not the impression, that Brian Fargo meant “Facebook social gaming” by the social aspect. Sure, wording opend doors to wild speculations, but the multiplayer/note part was discussed much earlier in the forums/google polls, and when i heard about it, i did like the idea. You just have to make sure, that i only see notes from my friends, otherwise the world would be littered with deathnotes ;-)

      • Yea it is sadly the standard. I come to expect people flipping out over the smallest thing without even really knowing what it is but it still saddens me. Especially because, yes he did word it very open, but on the other hand it was very open, so why make hasty assumptions instead of thinking about what possibilities it has and waiting for Fargo to come out with a more specific statement,
        But from what I read I trust Brian Fargo to keep cool between all that and do what’s best for the game and not let the rage of people influence him too much.

  57. Pingback: Fargo: Wasteland 2 won’t have casual social features | VG247

  58. As I said before the word choice, during and after. I trust you and your team to make the best game possible. Onward and upward!!!

  59. Keep up the good work. I appreciate all you have done over the years to entertain people…me. even if you made a game that looked and played like the first Wasteland I would be ecstatic.

    No school like old school. I miss playing those old RPGs on the computer that you were behind. Make it modern, but keep it old school and all will be well.

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